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    Thread: BMW is having a bad day - and thatís okay - The Carmudgeon Show Ep.4 with Jason Cammisa

    1. Member andlf's Avatar
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      11-22-2019 09:30 PM #1
      Carz: allpic My 3 C's- Challenger, Camaro & Corrado -*Dusk Edition SS-*Group phacough-*Challenger RT
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
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      11-23-2019 07:39 AM #2
      interesting discussion. I've only owned 2 BMW cars, but I can see that the driving experience (from only a pleasure perspective) was better in the older one than the newer one.

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      11-23-2019 08:53 AM #3
      Am I the only one that keeps looking over their shoulders at the Scirocco and Delta.

      Decent conversation but my attention span can't handle 20 minutes of it. I do agree with many of the points made however.

    5. Member andlf's Avatar
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      11-23-2019 09:01 AM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by UncleJB View Post
      Am I the only one that keeps looking over their shoulders at the Scirocco and Delta.

      Decent conversation but my attention span can't handle 20 minutes of it. I do agree with many of the points made however.
      They are distracting.
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      11-23-2019 01:57 PM #5
      I'm really, really enjoying these videos.

      That said, it's amazing how small the things are that create a "bad car." Things like a bit of steering deadness on center, or slightly nonlinear steering response, or a slight lack of body control are just about all that separate some of the "bad" BMWs from "good" BMWs.

      Mind you, I make my consulting money pointing out those minute differences to OEMs. But it still sometimes feels like us enthusiasts are really grasping at the thinnest of straws.

      Then again, I ran (not walked) away from a test-drive of a F15 X5 for these exact reasons...

      Tom

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      11-23-2019 04:12 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by mutcth View Post
      I'm really, really enjoying these videos.

      That said, it's amazing how small the things are that create a "bad car." Things like a bit of steering deadness on center, or slightly nonlinear steering response, or a slight lack of body control are just about all that separate some of the "bad" BMWs from "good" BMWs.

      Mind you, I make my consulting money pointing out those minute differences to OEMs. But it still sometimes feels like us enthusiasts are really grasping at the thinnest of straws.

      Then again, I ran (not walked) away from a test-drive of a F15 X5 for these exact reasons...

      Tom
      Itís because of how much these damn cars cost. People pay an insane premium for a car like a BMW, so the expectations are sky high. If I was buying a 1993 Corolla for $2500 I wouldnít give two ****s about the steering feel.

      Honestly, thatís the biggest issue I had with the Tacomaís that I owned and hated. They werenít terrible vehicles, I just didnít think they were good enough to justify the $450 car payment every month.

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      11-23-2019 04:25 PM #7
      I don't agree with what they're saying at all. BMW M2/3/4 are still very much "drivers cars" in every sense of the word. The interiors are just fine, too. The reason they don't feel as exciting to drive as, say, a E46 M3 is because they are much faster/ better handling. In other words, the limits of the car are so much higher that you really can't reach them on public roads, and driving them at normal speeds feels like you're standing still. The rest of their line up is no better or worse than anyone else. I'll take a 330 over a C300 or an A4 and a 530 over a E300.

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      11-23-2019 05:13 PM #8
      BMW (and most German auto brand) = Ultimate Leasing Machine (tm)
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      11-25-2019 11:05 AM #9
      I enjoyed this a LOT (big surprise, I pretty much love everything Cammisa does), and it gets down to a core question I have:

      When you strip the magazine glamour away from new models, what is worth buying and what isn't?

      I touch on this a lot with my Golf R - I threw that car up against a BMW 340i, and I ended up with the R...and I think I am better off for it. I drove an M3, and while the car is dynamically better, I question whether it's better enough to justify the price increase. And generically, are the "new model" cars that come out REALLY better than their predecessors?

      I do think BMW has lost its way, but on the flip side, I am actively looking at a new BMW X5, which I believe has become more appealing for general use as a sportier alternative to other SUVs. Read into that what you will.
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      11-25-2019 12:00 PM #10
      should have harped on the final point more .... when everyone is buying teslas over BMWs (as they should) ... its bad news for your brand. teslas arnt even that driver focused, and they are still more driver focused than BMWs
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

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      11-25-2019 12:23 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Dandbest View Post
      I don't agree with what they're saying at all. BMW M2/3/4 are still very much "drivers cars" in every sense of the word. The interiors are just fine, too. The reason they don't feel as exciting to drive as, say, a E46 M3 is because they are much faster/ better handling.

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      11-25-2019 12:25 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by KevinC View Post
      Good point

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      11-25-2019 12:38 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Dandbest View Post
      The reason they don't feel as exciting to drive as, say, a E46 M3 is because they are much faster/ better handling. I
      I think because so many other brands have caught up. There are a lot of cars that are so similar that you have to split hairs now. I think we are in an age that are very fortunate to get the performance we are getting even from everyday mundane vehicles.

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      11-25-2019 01:52 PM #14
      I was roaring over Cammisa explaining in his own words the pile of sh*t that Mercedes ended up with when they purchased Chrysler.

      As far as BMW, I hope this really is just a bad day. From what I've read, the steering feel is slightly better in brand new 3 versus outgoing, so maybe it's a turn in the right direction.
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      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
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      11-25-2019 01:58 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by mrothwell View Post
      Itís because of how much these damn cars cost. People pay an insane premium for a car like a BMW, so the expectations are sky high. If I was buying a 1993 Corolla for $2500 I wouldnít give two ****s about the steering feel.
      Agreed. The stuff I "didn't mind" in any number of our cheap old vehicles becomes a "serious problem" in a new car I'm paying 3 or 4 hundred bucks a month on for 5 years.

      I wonder if our greater nit-pickiness comes from the ever-increasing cost of a new car?

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      11-25-2019 02:16 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      I was roaring over Cammisa explaining in his own words the pile of sh*t that Mercedes ended up with when they purchased Chrysler.
      Eh, I think he mischaracterized a lot of what caused Mercedes' decline in quality in the late 90's and early 2000s. A lot of the cheapness that set in was already well in motion before DaimlerChrysler. They had brought in McKinsey & Co. after the W140 when far and away over budget to help them slash costs. The W210 E-class, W220 S-class, and W163 ML got the brunt of it.
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      11-25-2019 06:25 PM #17
      I live in Germany and I really can't say I agree with what Cammisa said about speed limits here. Plenty of unrestricted autobahn sections, still, and outside the autobahn network you can still drive up to 100 kph even on some twisty mountain roads.

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      11-25-2019 06:45 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by Son View Post
      and outside the autobahn network you can still drive up to 100 kph even on some twisty mountain roads.
      That's what, 60MPH?
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      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      Go to hell, Cabin Richguy.

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      11-25-2019 07:44 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Dandbest View Post
      I don't agree with what they're saying at all. BMW M2/3/4 are still very much "drivers cars" in every sense of the word. The interiors are just fine, too. The reason they don't feel as exciting to drive as, say, a E46 M3 is because they are much faster/ better handling. In other words, the limits of the car are so much higher that you really can't reach them on public roads, and driving them at normal speeds feels like you're standing still.
      Is this a good thing for a street car?

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      11-25-2019 07:54 PM #20
      Eh, people make too much of very, very minute details. I've driven the m2/3/4 as well as the current m340. I thought they were all excellent cars to drive. I don't care much about the 230, 330 or similar as I'd never buy a 4 cyl BMW. The only thing missing from the m340 is a manual, IMO. Then again, I'm not a bmw guy. I like my e92 quite a bit, but once the jeep is paid off, I'll be looking for a c7 corvette.

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      11-25-2019 08:06 PM #21
      He says BMW turned their back on [enthusiast] Americans, which has some merit with the dynamics. Ironically, in the bigger picture they've been embracing the [consumer] American market more, with lighter steering, cup-holders, stronger AC, more interior space, infotainment, etc. We can blame BMW, but when you think about it all they did was listen to the bulk of American feedback, which happens to be from non-enthusiasts.

      Oh, and despite all the BMW Chicken Little business, having numb steering doesn't prevent us from loving our M240i one bit. It's a great car.

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      11-25-2019 08:09 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I wonder if our greater nit-pickiness comes from the ever-increasing cost of a new car?
      I think a lot of the price inflation of cars is voluntary. A lowly M340i is a DSG fart away from an F10 M5, and it's like 1/2 the price after inflation. In absolute terms I am not sure cars have ever been cheaper.

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      11-25-2019 08:26 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Is this a good thing for a street car?
      It is in the sense that the expectation is that cars get faster with every generation. They can't get away with selling a E46 in 2019. So, the cars have gotten faster and with much higher limits. For example, at 70mph my E36M3 felt like it was moving. At 70 mph my F80 feels like its standing still. To get the same sensation in the F80, I need to be going 120+. But in any case, his point is still invalid. Look at the competition to the M3. Is the C63 any more entertaining?

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      11-25-2019 08:56 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Dandbest View Post
      It is in the sense that the expectation is that cars get faster with every generation. They can't get away with selling a E46 in 2019. So, the cars have gotten faster and with much higher limits. For example, at 70mph my E36M3 felt like it was moving. At 70 mph my F80 feels like its standing still. To get the same sensation in the F80, I need to be going 120+. But in any case, his point is still invalid. Look at the competition to the M3. Is the C63 any more entertaining?
      I guess my point is that maybe we have the wrong expectations. Speed limits haven't doubled, nor has driver ability. So what is the point of a street car that has to be driven at double the speed limit to feel something?

      I think BMW has the clout to throw the white flag in the HP wars. Look at what Porsche is doing with its GT cars. I think BMW could do the same with the ///M line. They should be fun at every speed.

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      11-25-2019 09:11 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I think a lot of the price inflation of cars is voluntary. A lowly M340i is a DSG fart away from an F10 M5, and it's like 1/2 the price after inflation. In absolute terms I am not sure cars have ever been cheaper.
      I don't want to get into a big debate because I'm not an economist, but wages and buying power have been stagnant for a long time.

      For most U.S. workers, real wages have barely budged in decades
      https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...d-for-decades/

      Not that any of that has stopped people from buying more and more expensive cars via extra long loans. Overextending yourself financially is as American as apple pie. The car manufacturers have been more than happy to fill those desires and I can't really blame them.

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