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    Thread: Toyota’s sales and marketing chief says there’s no demand for EVs

    1. Member
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      12-03-2019 05:38 PM #251
      Quote Originally Posted by BlackMiata View Post

      In the rural environment I can have extra gas stored in case of emergencies, we don't have a way to store electricity at home yet. yes we can install a generator, and have extra gas to run it, but at what cost of efficiency? Likely can go further with the gas in a ICE vehicle, than use it to charge the EV.
      CA is going to require solar panels on new home construction starting next year. There's your home electricity source. Solar has made rural off-grid living a bigger reality now than it ever has been before.

      Heck, you can get a 18,000BTU mini split designed to run directly off four solar panels. That would have been crazy talk twenty years ago.
      Last edited by Beanboy; 12-03-2019 at 05:43 PM.

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    3. 12-03-2019 06:00 PM #252
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      And yet there are more than there used to be here and elsewhere. You think that the only reason they're selling is because they're subsidized, but they're subsidized only to a point. People are still buying/leasing them because they want them, subsidies or not. Those subsidies will go away over time. See also subsidies for oil.




      You have indeed claimed to know the future just by saying that they won't sell/take over the fleet/whatever. What I'm saying is that nothing is stagnant. Nothing. Certainly not tech. And EVs are viable for a huge swath of the population now. What they aren't is cheap, but that is constantly changing too.

      The fact that you don't understand how mass manufacturing, research into new processes and materials, scale and competition doesn't make things cheaper is on you.
      "And yet there are more than there used to be here and elsewhere".

      Ih c'mon, that's not saying anything.

      Stay with me bro. EVs aren't selling in six digit numbers outside of one state, California.

      Unilateral Phase Detractor in Ohio, pretty big state, that state sold 4,5OO EVs total last year, Sporin in Vermont where only 824 EVs sold, me in North Carolina where only 4,712 sold, turbinepowered in SC where only 1,179 sold. EVs aren't a thing where none of us live.

      That's not hope and dreams, it's our shared reality.

      And you have to be honest, even EV fans here acknowledge this, without the subsidies EVs would be way more expensive than they are and you would indeed see a further drop in sales.

      You have to look at where EVs don't sell, the majority of states and honestly ask yourself why that is.

      They only sold 18,019 Chevy Bolts last year. Total. And it's a CUV. Without subsidies, at full price Chevy wouldn't have come near that paltry number.

      If I told you that a vehicle in Delaware was going to be huge and there's more than they use to be and that it only sold 627 units, you would say I was crazy.

    4. Member BlackMiata's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 06:07 PM #253
      Quote Originally Posted by Beanboy View Post
      CA is going to require solar panels on new home construction starting next year. There's your home electricity source. Solar has made rural off-grid living a bigger reality now than it ever has been before.

      Heck, you can get a 18,000BTU mini split designed to run directly off four solar panels. That would have been crazy talk twenty years ago.
      The assumption is all this solar works when the grid is down, it doesn't, as many folks in CA have found out the hard way. Most solar installation on homes works in conjunction with the grid, when the power goes off, the solar panels become decoration, by law. When the power is off, they don't want the solar to back feed the grid risking the lives of the workers fixing the grid.

      A solar installation that works in conjunction with the grid, but also can be used off-grid is ideal, but this is not your typical solar installation sold to the masses.

    5. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 06:21 PM #254
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      "And yet there are more than there used to be here and elsewhere".

      Ih c'mon, that's not saying anything.

      Stay with me bro. EVs aren't selling in six digit numbers outside of one state, California.

      Unilateral Phase Detractor in Ohio, pretty big state, that state sold 4,5OO EVs total last year, Sporin in Vermont where only 824 EVs sold, me in North Carolina where only 4,712 sold, turbinepowered in SC where only 1,179 sold. EVs aren't a thing where none of us live.

      That's not hope and dreams, it's our shared reality.

      And you have to be honest, even EV fans here acknowledge this, without the subsidies EVs would be way more expensive than they are and you would indeed see a further drop in sales.

      You have to look at where EVs don't sell, the majority of states and honestly ask yourself why that is.

      They only sold 18,019 Chevy Bolts last year. Total. And it's a CUV. Without subsidies, at full price Chevy wouldn't have come near that paltry number.

      If I told you that a vehicle in Delaware was going to be huge and there's more than they use to be and that it only sold 627 units, you would say I was crazy.
      You're missing the fact that we're at the beginning of the adoption curve and all of those states aren't exactly early adopters, nor is mine. You can also look at it like this: They sold 18,000 of those expensive (even with the subsidy) Bolts last year? Wow!

      They don't have the Tesla... whatever it is that makes people want Tesla, they're not really CUVs, they're hatchback economy cars that are electric and yes, they're still way too expensive, but that is changing.

      Now imagine that car being $25,000 or less, no subsidy involved and having the same running costs that it does now (much less than a gasser in both "fuel" costs and maintenance). The desirability goes up, the number of people who can afford it goes up and the prices of used ones become more reasonable. Now do that and have it actually be a good looking car and it'll sell more still!

      It isn't "hopes and dreams", it's how technology evolves and is adopted. It becomes cheaper and is more widely adopted. Now people scrounging for their next meal have cell phones, but 50 years ago you had radio phones with operators that were operated via radio relays and only the very rich, who were chauffeured had them. 30 years ago they were semi-exotic, 10 years ago everyone had a flip phone and now everyone has a computer in their pocket and watches movies at the airport if they wish. Technology moves along, dragging the late adopters with it - unless they're Amish.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    6. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 06:28 PM #255
      Quote Originally Posted by BlackMiata View Post
      The assumption is all this solar works when the grid is down, it doesn't, as many folks in CA have found out the hard way. Most solar installation on homes works in conjunction with the grid, when the power goes off, the solar panels become decoration, by law. When the power is off, they don't want the solar to back feed the grid risking the lives of the workers fixing the grid.

      A solar installation that works in conjunction with the grid, but also can be used off-grid is ideal, but this is not your typical solar installation sold to the masses.
      It should be, but it takes storage ($) to do that. Add in some batteries and a relay and you can run on minimal electricity at least. Solar panels by themselves rely on the grid as their battery, which works pretty well since the highest draw time is during the day when A/C is running in summertime, which is what the state and utility companies want (and that makes sense out there).

      It would just need a relay to cut the connection and batteries for when the power is out and could run as many LED lights as one wanted, keep the fridge and at least some fans and such running. I'm sure there are regulations on how that's done so it indeed doesn't back feed the lines and potentially kill people working to get the power back on, but it should be easy enough to do.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    7. 12-03-2019 06:32 PM #256
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      You're missing the fact that we're at the beginning of the adoption curve and all of those states aren't exactly early adopters, nor is mine. You can also look at it like this: They sold 18,000 of those expensive (even with the subsidy) Bolts last year? Wow!

      They don't have the Tesla... whatever it is that makes people want Tesla, they're not really CUVs, they're hatchback economy cars that are electric and yes, they're still way too expensive, but that is changing.

      Now imagine that car being $25,000 or less, no subsidy involved and having the same running costs that it does now (much less than a gasser in both "fuel" costs and maintenance). The desirability goes up, the number of people who can afford it goes up and the prices of used ones become more reasonable. Now do that and have it actually be a good looking car and it'll sell more still! :laugh:

      It isn't "hopes and dreams", it's how technology evolves and is adopted. It becomes cheaper and is more widely adopted. Now people scrounging for their next meal have cell phones, but 50 years ago you had radio phones with operators that were operated via radio relays and only the very rich, who were chauffeured had them. 30 years ago they were semi-exotic, 10 years ago everyone had a flip phone and now everyone has a computer in their pocket and watches movies at the airport if they wish. Technology moves along, dragging the late adopters with it - unless they're Amish.
      Look what you typed in bold above though, none of that is real and it is indeed a wish.

      You can't ignore realities and EV sellers have to figure out how to change where they are losing (practically the whole country) and honestly face it.
      Last edited by Burnette; 12-03-2019 at 06:35 PM.

    8. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 06:48 PM #257
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Look what you typed in bold above though, none of that is real and it is indeed a wish.

      You can't ignore realities and EV sellers have to figure out how to change where they are losing (practically the whole country) and honestly face it.

      Well there's the rub, then. Do you honestly believe that isn't changing? That's the thing that is really going to make the difference, much more than charging infrastructure or range.

      As I said previously there is no profit in them yet, but as battery prices come down there will be. Once that happens then the prices will start to come down, but of course car companies are going to keep this niche because they don't make any money at it yet. Toyota will get there, but not until they need to. They're happy to take the Japanese government's money on hydrogen cars and most of that tech will switch over to BEVs just fine. The only thing they'll need is the batteries themselves and they're big enough to buy whatever batteries they want when they feel they can make money at it.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    9. 12-03-2019 07:53 PM #258
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Well there's the rub, then. Do you honestly believe that isn't changing? That's the thing that is really going to make the difference, much more than charging infrastructure or range.

      As I said previously there is no profit in them yet, but as battery prices come down there will be. Once that happens then the prices will start to come down, but of course car companies are going to keep this niche because they don't make any money at it yet. Toyota will get there, but not until they need to. They're happy to take the Japanese government's money on hydrogen cars and most of that tech will switch over to BEVs just fine. The only thing they'll need is the batteries themselves and they're big enough to buy whatever batteries they want when they feel they can make money at it.
      The gains are so infinitesimal as to not register. And car companies aren't keeping EVs niche, their price, absence of infrastructure, consumers served by a market saturated with value choices are.

      In bold again above, "once that happens" is the same as "if" and "when", it's still hope and dreams in the face of the reality of how little and where EVs sell.

      I do have to stop here and say I see parallels in your enthusiasm for EVs and me being a fan of the Detroit Lions. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, Stafford is awesome and if we only had a better defense... but I don't say we're going to the Superbowl at the start of every season
      Last edited by Burnette; 12-03-2019 at 08:01 PM.

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      12-03-2019 08:27 PM #259
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      The gains are so infinitesimal as to not register. And car companies aren't keeping EVs niche, their price, absence of infrastructure, consumers served by a market saturated with value choices are.

      In bold again above, "once that happens" is the same as "if" and "when", it's still hope and dreams in the face of the reality of how little and where EVs sell.

      I do have to stop here and say I see parallels in your enthusiasm for EVs and me being a fan of the Detroit Lions. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, Stafford is awesome and if we only had a better defense... but I don't say we're going to the Superbowl at the start of every season
      The Lions won 3 games this season. There have been around 192 matches played thus far this season in the NFL.

      That works out to 1.5% of matches won in the NFL by the Lion's.

      That kind of market share is irrelevant when you look at the NFL as a whole. Your team is irrelevant in the NFL when you look the numbers and I don't see that changing any time in the foreseeable future.

    11. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 08:35 PM #260
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      The gains are so infinitesimal as to not register. And car companies aren't keeping EVs niche, their price, absence of infrastructure, consumers served by a market saturated with value choices are.

      In bold again above, "once that happens" is the same as "if" and "when", it's still hope and dreams in the face of the reality of how little and where EVs sell.

      I do have to stop here and say I see parallels in your enthusiasm for EVs and me being a fan of the Detroit Lions. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, Stafford is awesome and if we only had a better defense... but I don't say we're going to the Superbowl at the start of every season
      I’ll ask you the same question, then.

      In 100 years do you honestly think we’ll be driving piston engine cars powered by goo coming out of the ground?

      The only real question is the timeline.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      The Lions won 3 games this season. There have been around 192 matches played thus far this season in the NFL.

      That works out to 1.5% of matches won in the NFL by the Lion's.

      That kind of market share is irrelevant when you look at the NFL as a whole. Your team is irrelevant in the NFL when you look the numbers and I don't see that changing any time in the foreseeable future.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    12. 12-03-2019 08:45 PM #261
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      The Lions won 3 games this season. There have been around 192 matches played thus far this season in the NFL.

      That works out to 1.5% of matches won in the NFL by the Lion's.

      That kind of market share is irrelevant when you look at the NFL as a whole. Your team is irrelevant in the NFL when you look the numbers and I don't see that changing any time in the foreseeable future.
      And you got it, that's exactly right. And EVs are a pretty good equivalent to my team

      So why these good people here think it's going to change for EVs, and not only change but quickly, I'll never know.

    13. 12-03-2019 08:50 PM #262
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      I’ll ask you the same question, then.

      In 100 years do you honestly think we’ll be driving piston engine cars powered by goo coming out of the ground?

      The only real question is the timeline.


      Fossil fuels are and will be cheap to obtain for as long as we pump it out of the ground. It's also a huge money marker as personal 747s attest.

      We will never leave it totally and it will remain the major source of energy for your lifetime and mine.

      Now let's go get some hotdogs.
      Last edited by Burnette; 12-03-2019 at 09:14 PM.

    14. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      12-03-2019 09:22 PM #263
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      The gains are so infinitesimal as to not register. And car companies aren't keeping EVs niche, their price, absence of infrastructure, consumers served by a market saturated with value choices are.

      In bold again above, "once that happens" is the same as "if" and "when", it's still hope and dreams in the face of the reality of how little and where EVs sell.

      I do have to stop here and say I see parallels in your enthusiasm for EVs and me being a fan of the Detroit Lions. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, Stafford is awesome and if we only had a better defense... but I don't say we're going to the Superbowl at the start of every season
      Given that there’s global political and, yes, market demand for emissions reductions, and switching from gasoline cars to EVs is low-hanging fruit to achieve those reductions, I don’t think your analogy carries. I say market demand because the second a desirable EV came out that was stylish and not a “dorky hatchback” (consumer perspective), it sold well against competitors of its size and price point. Amazingly, despite only having a minor refresh cosmetically, that model is still selling well 7 years on. Then the second an EV came out in another segment that hit everything right on the spec sheet AND was affordable, that model has done even better. People are more open to EVs than you seem to want to acknowledge. They’re just not ready to give up their CR-V or F-150 in order to “make one work.”

      Anyway the reason your analogy doesn’t quite work is it’s not reasonable to assume the outcome of a 256-game plus playoffs football season, with 32 teams each with the same salary cap, with an annual draft to help equalize them further, and injuries and moving pieces along the way, is predictable. There’s an entire industry of “experts” trying to predict every game, every week, and they still don’t get it all right. Games come down to chance all the time, even weather, and Murphy’s Law means even the Pats will fall to Miami sometimes. It’s a probabilistic scenario that gets easier to call as a season goes on, but exactly 1 team will win the Super Bowl, every year, and then it all resets again. That’s totally unrelated to trendlines in auto sales and the broader world. There, there’s no reset button, and the trendlines of atmospheric carbon concentration, willingness to take action against it, continual improvement of battery technology, and continued greening of the power grid, along with year over year over year EV sales growth, tell us that on our current course, everything is trending towards EVs displacing ICE. “Oh they’re only 2% now”... well weren’t they under 1% not that long ago? Observing that the future is heading their way isn’t getting a tattoo of “Cleveland Browns, Super Bowl LIV Champs” preseason. It’s not fanboyism. It’s using empirical observation of recent trends in order to predict future outcomes, no rolling a roulette wheel.

      You’re focusing on people not overwhelmingly giving up their desired bodystyles for EVs. I’m seeing that where there are compelling EVs in a given bodystyle, price point, etc, they’re doing quite well. Multiple brands launching EVs in the high-volume RAV4 and F-150 segments over the next 2-3 years is going to be interesting to watch.

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      12-03-2019 09:34 PM #264
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Fossil fuels are and will be cheap to obtain for as long as we pump it out of the ground.
      * or be able to synthetize it *. Possibly a less pollutant version of it. Very likely, much more so than the pipedream EV thing.

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      12-03-2019 09:43 PM #265
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      It should be, but it takes storage ($) to do that. Add in some batteries and a relay and you can run on minimal electricity at least. Solar panels by themselves rely on the grid as their battery, which works pretty well since the highest draw time is during the day when A/C is running in summertime, which is what the state and utility companies want (and that makes sense out there).

      It would just need a relay to cut the connection and batteries for when the power is out and could run as many LED lights as one wanted, keep the fridge and at least some fans and such running. I'm sure there are regulations on how that's done so it indeed doesn't back feed the lines and potentially kill people working to get the power back on, but it should be easy enough to do.
      Systems are off-the-shelf nowadays. Any solar installer will gladly toss in storage. In MA, the state will throw in an additional per kW payment to you if you install a battery for peak draw events, and gives you a couple of days of house power if the grid goes down. Does it make fiscal sense yet? Nope.

      With solar baked-in to the price of a new house in CA, the uptake on battery home storage is going to increase, particularly if grid stability is questionable for the foreseeable future.

    17. 12-03-2019 09:58 PM #266
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Given that there’s global political and, yes, market demand for emissions reductions, and switching from gasoline cars to EVs is low-hanging fruit to achieve those reductions, I don’t think your analogy carries. I say market demand because the second a desirable EV came out that was stylish and not a “dorky hatchback” (consumer perspective), it sold well against competitors of its size and price point. Amazingly, despite only having a minor refresh cosmetically, that model is still selling well 7 years on. Then the second an EV came out in another segment that hit everything right on the spec sheet AND was affordable, that model has done even better. People are more open to EVs than you seem to want to acknowledge. They’re just not ready to give up their CR-V or F-150 in order to “make one work.”

      Anyway the reason your analogy doesn’t quite work is it’s not reasonable to assume the outcome of a 256-game plus playoffs football season, with 32 teams each with the same salary cap, with an annual draft to help equalize them further, and injuries and moving pieces along the way, is predictable. There’s an entire industry of “experts” trying to predict every game, every week, and they still don’t get it all right. Games come down to chance all the time, even weather, and Murphy’s Law means even the Pats will fall to Miami sometimes. It’s a probabilistic scenario that gets easier to call as a season goes on, but exactly 1 team will win the Super Bowl, every year, and then it all resets again. That’s totally unrelated to trendlines in auto sales and the broader world. There, there’s no reset button, and the trendlines of atmospheric carbon concentration, willingness to take action against it, continual improvement of battery technology, and continued greening of the power grid, along with year over year over year EV sales growth, tell us that on our current course, everything is trending towards EVs displacing ICE. “Oh they’re only 2% now”... well weren’t they under 1% not that long ago? Observing that the future is heading their way isn’t getting a tattoo of “Cleveland Browns, Super Bowl LIV Champs” preseason. It’s not fanboyism. It’s using empirical observation of recent trends in order to predict future outcomes, no rolling a roulette wheel.

      You’re focusing on people not overwhelmingly giving up their desired bodystyles for EVs. I’m seeing that where there are compelling EVs in a given bodystyle, price point, etc, they’re doing quite well. Multiple brands launching EVs in the high-volume RAV4 and F-150 segments over the next 2-3 years is going to be interesting to watch.
      Got it in the first sentence, politics, both local and global have shown that they follow the money and there's next to zero "market demand for emissions reductions" from consumers, there's only regulations that require it and we've witnessed how easy that can change this year at home abroad with subsidies being examined and standards lowered.

      So it's the same as it ever was and what will be.

      You totally missed the analogy, it's that although you can be a fan you also have to be realistic and learn from past, current and forecasted evidence. People are saying EVs are trending while they're not even breaking a thousand units per year in some states.

      Going from 1% to 2% is just lol, no one would try and seriously hang their hat on that. If AAWDM's state of Indiana is selling just 1,500 EVs a year and if even doubled to 3,000 (which it's not projected to do) it would still be infinitesimal in the market and not a huge tend to EVs as you would report it to be.

      The evidence you have observed is that EVs are stuck on one end in one state market with a premium product, neither will get you to sales volume country wide. 4,456 EVs sold in Ohio last year, you're not riding a wave, you're looking for a wet spot.

    18. 12-03-2019 11:44 PM #267
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Got it in the first sentence, politics, both local and global have shown that they follow the money and there's next to zero "market demand for emissions reductions" from consumers, there's only regulations that require it and we've witnessed how easy that can change this year at home abroad with subsidies being examined and standards lowered.

      So it's the same as it ever was and what will be.

      You totally missed the analogy, it's that although you can be a fan you also have to be realistic and learn from past, current and forecasted evidence. People are saying EVs are trending while they're not even breaking a thousand units per year in some states.

      Going from 1% to 2% is just lol, no one would try and seriously hang their hat on that. If AAWDM's state of Indiana is selling just 1,500 EVs a year and if even doubled to 3,000 (which it's not projected to do) it would still be infinitesimal in the market and not a huge tend to EVs as you would report it to be.

      The evidence you have observed is that EVs are stuck on one end in one state market with a premium product, neither will get you to sales volume country wide. 4,456 EVs sold in Ohio last year, you're not riding a wave, you're looking for a wet spot.
      Lol, no demand for emissions reduction? Lol.

      You think people are paying more money for hybrids and EV's because of government requirements? That's literally the dumbest thing I've heard in this entire thread.

      Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

    19. 12-04-2019 07:15 AM #268
      Quote Originally Posted by Silver_arrow12! View Post
      Lol, no demand for emissions reduction? Lol.

      You think people are paying more money for hybrids and EV's because of government requirements? That's literally the dumbest thing I've heard in this entire thread.

      Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
      Oh, I wholeheartedly believe people buy EVs and hybrids for different reasons but the demand is low as to not be the real driver for their being.

      The real driver for those platforms are the regs that required them, if companies weren't forced to make them they wouldn't.

      And that's not to say that I believe either is a bad product or that they shouldn't be explored. I think truthfully the path forward will be a mix of platforms.

      There's different perspectives and real pluses and minuses that are in play. I think where most get lost is the timeline. We are deep and long in the gas cycle and until other platforms really mature it will remain so.

      Hyundai is hyping their Nexo hydrogen fuel cell CUV. Thst technology is way behind, costly and has worse infrastructure issues. Yet they journey on with thier own "hopes and dreams". They have skin in the game and see a different picture of the market than many profess to know here:

      Hyundai Nexo breaks world record distance for hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
      It went 484 miles

      Using its advanced air purification system that filters out very fine dust, Hyundai said the Nexo purified the same volume of air breathed by 23 adults each day during the trip. Doing the same trip in a combustion vehicle would have emitted around 245 pounds of CO2, the automaker said.

      The feat follows Hyundai’s nomination of the Nexo to undergo full crash testing earlier this year by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. It became the first hydrogen fuel cell vehicle evaluated by IIHS, and it aced the crash testing, earning a Top Safety Pick+ award in the process.

      https://www.autoblog.com/2019/12/03/...stance-record/

    20. 12-04-2019 07:21 AM #269
      Another comparison of hydrogen fuel cells and EVs:

      Pros: FCEVs convert hydrogen – or other fuel – to electricity. This is the difference between EVs and hydrogen cars. Fueling a hydrogen car is just like buying regular gasoline and takes only 3 to 5 minutes. For a time-starved population, it makes more sense practically.

      Cons: You charge EVs directly with electricity. It takes an hour, at least, to supercharge an EV and from 14.5 to 48 hours using a standard household outlet. This is too long for most people. Although the infrastructure is growing, not everyone lives in a location where public charging stations are available.

      Pros: With the exception of a few models (Tesla Motors in particular,) hydrogen cars typically have double the range of most battery-powered EVs. Even if individual owners don’t buy hydrogen, companies with fleets of trucks, buses, and delivery vans will be able to save time and money.

      Cons: Most people buying EVs still grapple with range anxiety. The more affordable models travel roughly 140 to 190 miles on one charge. While this is enough for city driving and most work commutes, it can make some nervous, especially those in rural or suburban areas. In these instances, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle might be more reassuring.

      Pros: EVs in the U.S. run on electricity made with fossil fuels. Owners charge EVs directly with electricity and, because they use an existing grid, there is no need to transport electricity.

      Cons: In the U.S., for example, hydrogen is also created from fossil fuels. This is not the only way to do it. It is possible to create renewable hydrogen in several ways: from solar or wind electrolysis of water, from water vapor in the air, from crop waste, or biogas from landfills or wastewater treatment plants.

      Pros: Buying an EV is beyond the means of many Americans but still (currently) cheaper than an FCEV. An Audi E-Tron costs $75,000; the Hyundai Kona Electric and Tesla Model 3 both cost between $35,000 and $40,000; and the Nissan Leaf about $32,000. The latter vehicles are examples of the market trying to make EVs more affordable and accessible. There still isn’t a vigorous market in secondhand EVs.

      Most Australians can’t afford an EV either. The average EV costs over A$60,000 but you can buy them for less. A Nissan Leaf starts from A$49,000, and the Hyundai Ioniq Electric starts at A$46,000 before on-road costs.

      Cons: If you live in the U.S., there are only four FCEVs for sale or lease. However, each have a range of 312 to 380 miles. They are all 2019 models and have a starting price of around $59,000: Honda Clarity, Hyundai Nexo, Hyundai Nexo Blue, and Toyota Mirai. Hyundai is a big investor in hydrogen. If Hyundai is right, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will be less money than EVs by 2030.

      https://www.automoblog.net/2019/10/1...electric-cars/

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      12-04-2019 08:40 AM #270
      Quote Originally Posted by masa8888 View Post
      I agree that cars won't get cheaper in the future, but they'll continue to be more capable for the price. I see this progression being quicker for EV's than ICE, though. Using a made up example, let's say a $30k ICE sedan today that comes with X standard features and gets 30mpg. 15 years from now that same model will still be $30k (in today's dollars) but come 25% more standard features and gets 34mpg. Meanwhile, a $40k EV that gets X standard features with a 250 mile range. In 15 years (3 generations after today), that same EV will still be $40k, but get 50% more standard features and have a 400 mile range. In other words, I can imagine a critical mass scenario where EV sales gain serious traction as long as EV's advancements keep outpacing ICE.
      I agree. But to make a tech comparo, Apple needs roughly $250 all-in materials and labor to provide us a brand new $799 iPhone. Car companies will gladly keep MSRP in "historical" line to reap those margins...

      You are correct, we'll get more for the $$, but we should never expect flat screen tv like pricing.

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      12-04-2019 08:54 AM #271
      Quote Originally Posted by Beanboy View Post
      CA is going to require solar panels on new home construction starting next year. There's your home electricity source. Solar has made rural off-grid living a bigger reality now than it ever has been before.

      Heck, you can get a 18,000BTU mini split designed to run directly off four solar panels. That would have been crazy talk twenty years ago.
      And while I fully agree and support that, the way CA operates, it'll cost $30-40k to outfit every new home, considering the articles for the original press release stated a $10K new construction number.

      It's a great concept, but would be better executed w/o CA regs, rules and costs.

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      12-04-2019 09:05 AM #272
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Given that there’s global political and, yes, market demand for emissions reductions, and switching from gasoline cars to EVs is low-hanging fruit to achieve those reduction....
      The real life caveat to that statement is that markets will not support enviro programs and/or emissions reductions if the costs for those actions negatively affects their own wallet. See France, Germany, other countries that talk a great game, but water down their their expectations when people protest the costs of the actions. The entire French yellow vest protest movement is a response to tax increases on fuel, driven by Macrons wanting to force his enviro agenda. It backfired, massively.

      Ask an non-partisan California resident economist whether they believe CA enviro regs are cost friendly to the general public and the polite smile you'll get back will speak a thousand words. Not saying they aren't important or needed, but people (everyone below the 2%) will only allow so much in terms of economic loss before they prioritize differently.

    24. 12-04-2019 09:43 AM #273
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      The real life caveat to that statement is that markets will not support enviro programs and/or emissions reductions if the costs for those actions negatively affects their own wallet. See France, Germany, other countries that talk a great game, but water down their their expectations when people protest the costs of the actions. The entire French yellow vest protest movement is a response to tax increases on fuel, driven by Macrons wanting to force his enviro agenda. It backfired, massively.

      Ask an non-partisan California resident economist whether they believe CA enviro regs are cost friendly to the general public and the polite smile you'll get back will speak a thousand words. Not saying they aren't important or needed, but people (everyone below the 2%) will only allow so much in terms of economic loss before they prioritize differently.
      Unfortunately, people are too shortsighted to compare the cost of reducing emissions to what the cost of not reducing emissions will be over a 50 years period of time.

      Let's face it, global warming will be a poor and middle class problem. The wealthy will be fine, they'll migrate to areas less affected and they'll be ok. It's the 90% of the population that lives near water and can't move as easily that will bear the costs.

      Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
      Last edited by Silver_arrow12!; 12-04-2019 at 09:45 AM.

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      12-04-2019 09:58 AM #274
      Quote Originally Posted by Silver_arrow12! View Post
      Unfortunately, people are too shortsighted to compare the cost of reducing emissions to what the cost of not reducing emissions will be over a 50 years period of time.

      Let's face it, global warming will be a poor and middle class problem. The wealthy will be fine, they'll migrate to areas less affected and they'll be ok. It's the 90% of the population that lives near water and can't move as easily that will bear the costs.

      Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
      The problem is solvable, but not until half the (political) population stops blaming and punishing the people that pay the bills. We've polarized this topic instead on using it to unite us.

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      12-04-2019 09:59 AM #275
      Quote Originally Posted by Silver_arrow12! View Post
      Unfortunately, people are too shortsighted to compare the cost of reducing emissions to what the cost of not reducing emissions will be over a 50 years period of time.

      Let's face it, global warming will be a poor and middle class problem. The wealthy will be fine, they'll migrate to areas less affected and they'll be ok. It's the 90% of the population that lives near water and can't move as easily that will bear the costs.

      Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
      That 90% of the population also isn't buying new cars, regardless of powertrain.

      If reducing emissions is the goal, I just don't understand the fixation on EVs. The limited battery capacity we have would be better spent deployed to renewable energy storage in electric generation and hybrids. It's also stupid to try to force people in passenger cars to EVs while still allowing glider kits to exist. With the spike in trucking mileage emissions in that realm are an increasing concern. I don't understand what EVihadists are trying to accomplish or why they have such narrow tunnel vision in the context of their claimed goals of combatting global warming. Passenger vehicles are far from the only source of emissions and definitely not the easiest source of emissions to address.

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