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    Thread: Toyota’s sales and marketing chief says there’s no demand for EVs

    1. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 10:13 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      The example of small market countries banning al gas vehicles doesn't move the needle though. Who gives two feks about Sri Lanka's small annual auto take?
      I have feeling that quite a number of people do care that the combined markets of France, the UK, Netherlands, Sweden, China (no date given though) Norway at the very least will be off-limit for ICE cars in the future. Not to mention that the people living in the cities of Los Angeles, Brussels, Barcelona, Madrid, Milan, Rome, Mexico City, Athens, Vancouver won't be able to use their ICE cars either.

      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      As far as people being opposed to EVs, your example of countries having to resort to a ban is proof that they too have consumers in opposition to EVs.
      Other than making people opposed to EV feel good about themselves, does it really matter what it is instrumental in driving the demand for EVs?

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    3. 12-01-2019 10:16 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Galrot View Post
      I have feeling that quite a number of people do care that the combined markets of France, the UK, Netherlands, Sweden, China (no date given though) Norway at the very least will be off-limit for ICE cars in the future. Not to mention that the people living in the cities of Los Angeles, Brussels, Barcelona, Madrid, Milan, Rome, Mexico City, Athens, Vancouver won't be able to use their ICE cars either.



      Other than making people opposed to EV feel good about themselves, does it really matter what it is instrumental in driving the demand for EVs?
      Yes it does matter that you have to highly regulate, subsize and ban competition to force a product people clearly don't want.

    4. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 10:20 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Yes it does matter that you have to highly regulate, subsize and ban competition to force a product people clearly don't want.
      Why does it matter? Demand is demand, regardless of whether it is a result of legislation or not. The argument was merely about the future of EVs.

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      12-01-2019 10:20 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by Galrot View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I guess it depends on the level of the ban. If it's a ban on new ICE sales then people can just buy used ICEVs. If it's a total ban... God bless and good luck. Most people can't afford new ICEVs so the idea of forcing them to throw away perfectly good cars to buy new ones is ridiculous. Almost feels more like it's about exerting control rather than doing any actual problems
      It's the phase out of the sales of ICE cars we are talking about here. I see that apparently Sri Lanka will ban all ICE cars, but the rest of the countries are only talking about the sales of new cars while some cities are talking about banning the usage of tboundaries.

      I suspect for most people it will be seen as less of a sacrifice to go from new ICE cars to new EV cars, than it will be seen as go from new ICE cars to some Cuba-esque car market where the same old ICE cars are circulated around. I don't think most people outside of TLC are that opposed to EVs.
      I'm not opposed to EVs, just bad ideas. Arbitrary ICEV bans are bad ideas. Progress comes through hard work and cooperation... Not political showmanship and hostage taking. What happens if EVs aren't ready for 100% in 2030?

    6. 12-01-2019 10:27 AM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Galrot View Post
      Why does it matter? Demand is demand, regardless of whether it is a result of legislation or not. The argument was merely about the future of EVs.
      Why does it matter? Because forcing consumers to buy what they don't want is a poor strategy, surely you see that. And it will backfire.

      In our country and others it's been well illustrated that nothing is written in stone, proclamations can become empty rhetoric pretty quick.

      That and how lame is it that demand has to be generated by agovernmental ban? It's no done deal, the numbers don't add up and the populous will push back.

    7. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 10:31 AM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Why does it matter? Because forcing consumers to buy what they don't want is a poor strategy, surely you see that. And it will backfire.

      In our country and others it's been well illustrated that nothing is written in stone, proclamations can become empty rhetoric pretty quick.

      That and how lame is it that demand has to be generated by agovernmental ban? It's no fine deal, the numbers don't add up and the populous will push back.
      Countries have a history of "forcing"/influencing through legislation consumer car choices since ww2 at the very least. There have been no significant push-back yet. I doubt you will see sufficient push-back across so many countries and so many cities for EVs to not have a market in the future.

    8. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 10:31 AM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      So now it’s somehow the “lowly researcher’s” fault that they got caught? THAT’S what you’re saying? VW has nobody to blame but themselves and their arrogance. It was stupid, they got caught and they’ve paid dearly for it, worldwide.
      Don't be ridiculous. I'm not justifying it I'm just illuminating what happened.

    9. 12-01-2019 10:40 AM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by Galrot View Post
      Countries have a history of "forcing"/influencing through legislation consumer car choices since ww2 at the very least. There have been no significant push-back yet. I doubt you will see sufficient push-back across so many countries and so many cities for EVs to not have a market in the future.
      Banning gas vehicles is a huge undertaking and in all the countries for sure, just like our own, are dysfunctional messes. Again, it's no done deal and yes, there would be push back, especially in the more developed countries.

      You have to appreciate the fact that even with subsidies and favorable regulations that EVs haven't taken hold. A ham fisted ban of competition shows the desperation. Trust, it will be a proper fight, the constituency has a voice and it will be heard. You're not going to make people by EVs in countries where they have the money and the political pull to say no.

    10. Member MrRoboto's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 10:41 AM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Why does it matter? Because forcing consumers to buy what they don't want is a poor strategy, surely you see that. And it will backfire.

      In our country and others it's been well illustrated that nothing is written in stone, proclamations can become empty rhetoric pretty quick.

      That and how lame is it that demand has to be generated by agovernmental ban? It's no done deal, the numbers don't add up and the populous will push back.
      He does have a point though. The whole idea of governance is to protect the greater good through legislation. If it is deemed that ICE is not good for environment and the alternatives are, then it will be done eventually.

      The debate is whether or not the alternatives are better for the environment than ICE's. I suppose one can twist arguments in whatever way they wish, so I won't get into that.

    11. 12-01-2019 10:46 AM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
      He does have a point though. The whole idea of governance is to protect the greater good through legislation. If it is deemed that ICE is not good for environment and the alternatives are, then it will be done eventually.

      The debate is whether or not the alternatives are better for the environment than ICE's. I suppose one can twist arguments in whatever way they wish, so I won't get into that.
      Again, as you see in our country and others nothing is straight forward and simple. There would be significant push back to a ban and to your point there's an argument that EVs aren't the answer environmentally or financially. They most certainly aren't today.

    12. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 10:49 AM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Banning gas vehicles is a huge undertaking and in all the countries you sure, just like our own, are dysfunctional messes. Again, it's no done deal and yes, there would be push back, especially in the more developed countries.

      You have to appreciate the fact that even with subsidies and favorable regulations that EVs haven't taken hold. A ham fisted ban of competition shows the desperation. Trust, it will be a proper fight, the constituency has a voice and it will be heard. You're not going to make people by EVs in countries where they have the money and the political pull to say no.
      I haven't followed the public debate in all countries. but there appears to have been little political opposition in the ones I have (mostly Scandinavia and the UK). Some grumbling online like for all new laws and legislations, but that is basically it.

      And I think environmental concerns is only going to become more pressing issues in many countries and the people who grown up without ever experience EVs are a dying cohort, so I don't where this sudden outburst of opposition should come from.

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      12-01-2019 10:50 AM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Why does it matter? Because forcing consumers to buy what they don't want is a poor strategy, surely you see that. And it will backfire.

      In our country and others it's been well illustrated that nothing is written in stone, proclamations can become empty rhetoric pretty quick.

      That and how lame is it that demand has to be generated by agovernmental ban? It's no done deal, the numbers don't add up and the populous will push back.
      He does have a point though. The whole idea of governance is to protect the greater good through legislation. If it is deemed that ICE is not good for environment and the alternatives are, then it will be done eventually.

      The debate is whether or not the alternatives are better for the environment than ICE's. I suppose one can twist arguments in whatever way they wish, so I won't get into that.
      There is plenty of evidence that EVs are better and will keep getting better environmentally over time. That's not the disagreement. The disagreement is whether it makes sense to let the market drive adoption or have governments force it.

    14. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 10:54 AM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Again, as you see in our country and others nothing is straight forward and simple. There would be significant push back to a ban and to your point there's an argument that EVs aren't the answer environmentally or financially. They most certainly aren't today.
      Yeah not to mention the lobbyists are not going to go away overnight. And God knows they are not going to stop lobbying for big oil for some time. That's a missing link here.

      And not to open a can of worms, but countries like scandanavian for example are homogeneous and socialist. The same can't be said for the US.

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      12-01-2019 10:59 AM #114
      I also wonder why EVs are such a lightning rod when transportation is one of many sectors that generates emissions. For example here in the US electric generation is equal to transportation in emissions. I'd bet it would be cheaper, faster and easier to make our electricity renewable than to get everyone in the US to buy EVs.

      I truly think EV advocates are more concerned with political control than actually addressing the environment. They just use the environment as moral cover. EVs are far from the lowest hanging fruit in the fight against climate change, even in the transportation sector

    16. 12-01-2019 11:02 AM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      There is plenty of evidence that EVs are better and will keep getting better environmentally over time. That's not the disagreement. The disagreement is whether it makes sense to let the market drive adoption or have governments force it.
      No, there's proof that EVs pose their own points of pollution generation in manufacturing, use ifcpowrcfrom mainly fossil fuel power plants and in their ultimate disposal.

      What people forget in all this is the scale of the auto market. Quick bans would cause massive disruptions and ZthecEV products available and the infrastructure isn't there.

      All should appreciate that it may never be either. Hybrids seem a better bet.

      As far as whether governments should be the drivers, look at our trade war, Brexit and the oil market today. There's no reason to believe that this will play out like people think. The only thing certain is the uncertainty of what will happen.

      Hence Toyota intelligently keeping their powder dry. It's all talk and bluster while outside our doors CUV/SUVs and trucks rule. And that's what the constituency wants.
      Last edited by Burnette; 12-01-2019 at 11:10 AM.

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      12-01-2019 11:03 AM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Again, as you see in our country and others nothing is straight forward and simple. There would be significant push back to a ban and to your point there's an argument that EVs aren't the answer environmentally or financially. They most certainly aren't today.
      Yeah not to mention the lobbyists are not going to go away overnight. And God knows they are not going to stop lobbying for big oil for some time. That's a missing link here.

      And not to open a can of worms, but countries like scandanavian for example are homogeneous and socialist. The same can't be said for the US.
      Homogeneity has nothing to do with it. People of all races and religions are capable of paying taxes and contributing to society, as we have seen for the whole existence of the US. Selling socialism here is another kettle of fish though

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      12-01-2019 11:03 AM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Don't be ridiculous. I'm not justifying it I'm just illuminating what happened.
      Yes. VW was cheating and finally got caught because someone other than our inept government looked into their emissions.
      VW screwed up and is paying for it now. And we as a species are finally starting to phase out diesel vehicles.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
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    19. 12-01-2019 11:08 AM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Yeah not to mention the lobbyists are not going to go away overnight. And God knows they are not going to stop lobbying for big oil for some time. That's a missing link here.

      And not to open a can of worms, but countries like scandanavian for example are homogeneous and socialist. The same can't be said for the US.
      You're right, our politics are funded by auto and oil but don't forget the biggest group, consumers. People vote in the ballot box and with their dollars. And they aren't buying EVs in masse for reason. They don't want them.

      Car culture isn't dead in America, they're not going to force us into a Bolt, lol.

    20. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 11:10 AM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      Yes. VW was cheating and finally got caught because someone other than our inept government looked into their emissions.
      VW screwed up and is paying for it now. And we as a species are finally starting to phase out diesel vehicles.
      Yeah- except Mazda still thinks the US should have them. And frankly the 2.2d is a blast to drive in the cx5, can't imagine how fun it is in the upcoming 6.

    21. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 11:13 AM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Homogeneity has nothing to do with it. People of all races and religions are capable of paying taxes and contributing to society, as we have seen for the whole existence of the US. Selling socialism here is another kettle of fish though
      I was getting more at the point that when people are more like minded they tend to convince each other more quickly that an idea is worth pushing forward. Ie- group think. Religion and race are ancillary. It's not like scandanavia is only white males. There is a healthy mix. The difference is that they all think along the same socialist mind set. I have friends from there. I know how it is.

    22. Member MrRoboto's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 11:14 AM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      There is plenty of evidence that EVs are better and will keep getting better environmentally over time. That's not the disagreement. The disagreement is whether it makes sense to let the market drive adoption or have governments force it.
      I think that's debatable to a certain extent. If market forces are left unchecked, our world would be very different today. It's a very simple premise that drives regulation, and I know there are those who would argue against it, but I truly believe that some form of it is required to benefit society as a whole.

      But does this fall into that category? Hard to say. If I was an unabashed environmentalist, I would totally be for a ban on ICE's for many reasons. But I am yet to be convinced myself, probably because I'm also a fan of ICE's, though I also am open to EV's myself if it was practical for me to own one.

      However, the sentiment it seems worldwide is that people's desire to drive in the first place seems to be diminishing. That's why I think a ban on ICE's is probably inevitable. Clarkson would probably blame that on people like Thunberg, but it's been happening since the 90's now. The countries who have traditionally supported car manufacturing like Germany and Japan also have younger generations who are not as into cars and are more ecologically aware than before, and the traditional driver for car culture, motorsports, is in decline worldwide.

      Unless if this trend is reversed, I don't see any reason to believe that the future of ICE's isn't dwindling.

      (Edited for dumbass grammar)
      Last edited by MrRoboto; 12-01-2019 at 11:21 AM.

    23. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 11:16 AM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      You're right, our politics are funded by auto and oil but don't forget the biggest group, consumers. People vote in the ballot box and with their dollars. And they aren't buying EVs in masse for reason. They don't want them.

      Car culture isn't dead in America, they're not going to force us into a Bolt, lol.
      If you think this is a true democracy where people vote for what they want guess again. We elect officials who lie there way to a bill that is lobbied for by people who have the money to wine and dine them. Only then is there a remote chance of having a say. The political system is horrifically flawed. The old adage of "if you want to make a change get out and vote" is under the pretense that it will take about a decade to make a difference in this country.

    24. 12-01-2019 11:22 AM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      If you think this is a true democracy where people vote for what they want guess again. We elect officials who lie there way to a bill that is lobbied for by people who have the money to wine and dine them. Only then is there a remote chance of having a say. The political system is horrifically flawed. The old adage of "if you want to make a change get out and vote" is under the pretense that it will take about a decade to make a difference in this country.
      I don't want to get political so let's look at it from a car centric place.

      The US consumer is still vehicle obsessed and won't be forced into a nascent product with a higher price, no support, more hassle, poor resale and products nobody wants. If pushed, they would push back and be aided by companies who are supplying what they are buying

    25. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 11:39 AM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      I don't want to get political so let's look at it from a car centric place.

      The US consumer is still vehicle obsessed and won't be forced into a nascent product with a higher price, no support, more hassle, poor resale and products nobody wants. If pushed, they would push back and be aided by companies who are supplying what they are buying
      You're confusing the fact that I'm agreeing with you. Lobbyists won't allow ice to go away is what I'm saying. And even if consumers wanted to vote on the matter, it wouldn't make a difference for a long time.

    26. 12-01-2019 11:51 AM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      You're confusing the fact that I'm agreeing with you. Lobbyists won't allow ice to go away is what I'm saying. And even if consumers wanted to vote on the matter, it wouldn't make a difference for a long time.
      We agree, I'm just adding that US consumers would vote to keep the gas vehicles they're buying.

      Seriously, as I've stated, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles is just as bonkers as EVs but they have some pluses EVs don't. They too would be decades away from critical mass but those pluses at scale would pay off better environmentally than pure EVs would.

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