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    Thread: Toyota’s sales and marketing chief says there’s no demand for EVs

    1. Member
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      12-02-2019 11:42 PM #201
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      The stations are cheap; <$1500 each for a two-outlet, 220V unit with power sharing and remote management capabilities that's rated for commercial use.
      The infrastructure is only expensive if you do it in tiny little bites (on a Disney scale); the difference between doing 10 spaces and 100 spaces is marginal, basically materials cost differential.
      All of the above is a rounding error for a place like Disney, and the electricity rates they pay are laughably low compared to residential rates, and that's before even counting on the on-site generation. So even if they charged you for the energy you put into your vehicle, they could charge what you pay at home and still make a profit after year 1, after paying for the installs and equipment.

      The outrageous sums of money for something that is really, really cheap for a business to install is the action of a person who wants to oppose that something, but can't run the risk publicly of saying so for whatever reason.

      Or that's just how the Disney Tax works: take something that's cheap, slap a pair of mouse ears on it, and charge people whatever they will pay.
      I'm not opposed to EV infrastructure expanding - I'm simply saying that it doesn't really exist at scale in most places and I will not even consider buying one until it is neither more expensive nor less convenient than a gasoline powered car. Most consumers are the same, hence the low market share.

      I'd love to have chargers available at my apartment and anywhere else I spend time. Until that happens, I'll use gas stations.

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    3. 12-02-2019 11:54 PM #202
      I am not against EVs. I just do not understand why they are better than Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles which has zero emissions and no batteries. They are quick to fill up and go. Using battery powered cars is an old technology and there is only so much lithium in the world. Plus, using large batteries it is not really that great for the environment; they are a hazard to dispose of and not easy to work on for mechanics as they have high voltage which needs special equipment. In addition, the weight of the batteries take up room and space. My first Prius had pretty bad oversteer due to the weight of the battery in the rear of car. It was a good car for road trips.

      I just think all of this needs to be put into perspective. Electric cars and batteries existed 100 years ago.

    4. Member Unilateral Phase Detractor's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 12:25 AM #203
      Quote Originally Posted by r286ps2 View Post
      I am not against EVs. I just do not understand why they are better than Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles which has zero emissions and no batteries. They are quick to fill up and go. Using battery powered cars is an old technology and there is only so much lithium in the world. Plus, using large batteries it is not really that great for the environment; they are a hazard to dispose of and not easy to work on for mechanics as they have high voltage which needs special equipment. In addition, the weight of the batteries take up room and space. My first Prius had pretty bad oversteer due to the weight of the battery in the rear of car. It was a good car for road trips.

      I just think all of this needs to be put into perspective. Electric cars and batteries existed 100 years ago.
      So I assume you’re sincere about hydrogen, but it’s been discussed ad nauseum around here why it’s an absurd challenge logistically and especially economically.


    5. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 12:31 AM #204
      Quote Originally Posted by r286ps2 View Post
      I am not against EVs. I just do not understand why they are better than Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles which has zero emissions and no batteries. They are quick to fill up and go. Using battery powered cars is an old technology and there is only so much lithium in the world. Plus, using large batteries it is not really that great for the environment; they are a hazard to dispose of and not easy to work on for mechanics as they have high voltage which needs special equipment. In addition, the weight of the batteries take up room and space. My first Prius had pretty bad oversteer due to the weight of the battery in the rear of car. It was a good car for road trips.

      I just think all of this needs to be put into perspective. Electric cars and batteries existed 100 years ago.
      Hydrogen take energy to produce. So unless the energy is produced by renewable energy (solar, wind or hydroelectric), there will be some type of emissions.

      The Toyota Mirai fuel cell vehicle does have a 245 V NiMH battery. Other fuel cell vehicles use a lithium ion battery.

      With regard to using that energy efficiently, it takes about 48 kWh to produce 1 kg of hydrogen with devices available today. It takes roughly 50 kWh of electricity to drive 200 miles with a Tesla Model 3. Can a Mirai go 200 miles on 1 kg of hydrogen? Not according to the EPA. According to the EPA page, only about 66 miles. So a Tesla Model 3 is almost 3 times more efficient.

    6. 12-03-2019 12:35 AM #205
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Hydrogen take energy to produce. So unless the energy is produced by renewable energy (solar, wind or hydroelectric), there will be some type of emissions.

      The Toyota Mirai fuel cell vehicle does have a 245 V NiMH battery. Other fuel cell vehicles use a lithium ion battery.

      With regard to using that energy efficiently, it takes about 48 kWh to produce 1 kg of hydrogen with devices available today. It takes roughly 50 kWh of electricity to drive 200 miles with a Tesla Model 3. Can a Mirai go 200 miles on 1 kg of hydrogen? Not according to the EPA. According to the EPA page, only about 66 miles. So a Tesla Model 3 is almost 3 times more efficient.
      Only if we could use a Delorean with Mr Fusion.


    7. Member rlfletch's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 02:33 AM #206
      Quote Originally Posted by r286ps2 View Post
      Go to NJ in the summer time near a beach and you will be waiting sometimes for 20 minutes JUST FOR GAS. There is no self-service there. It is annoying and when I moved out I realized how self service is much faster. Charging Stations will be a problem unless something is figured out to make it orderly in crowded places when or if we ever see millions of EV vehicles. This is just how I see it and I could be wrong but something has to give.
      You sound like the type of person that drives their car until the gas light comes on before realizing they should be looking for a gas station. God forbid you think about where your going and plan ahead.
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      Mercedes typically makes awful manual transmissions and fantastic auto transmissions. Choosing the stick would be like saying, "Y'know, that Natalie Portman is pretty hot, but if she grew some hair on her legs and had a dong, she'd be just right."
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      Was it parked on the curb on garbage day?

    8. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 03:13 AM #207
      Quote Originally Posted by r286ps2 View Post
      My first Prius had pretty bad oversteer due to the weight of the battery in the rear of car.
      Pretty bad oversteer?



      Great job keeping that beast on the road.
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    9. 12-03-2019 07:14 AM #208
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Hydrogen take energy to produce. So unless the energy is produced by renewable energy (solar, wind or hydroelectric), there will be some type of emissions.

      The Toyota Mirai fuel cell vehicle does have a 245 V NiMH battery. Other fuel cell vehicles use a lithium ion battery.

      With regard to using that energy efficiently, it takes about 48 kWh to produce 1 kg of hydrogen with devices available today. It takes roughly 50 kWh of electricity to drive 200 miles with a Tesla Model 3. Can a Mirai go 200 miles on 1 kg of hydrogen? Not according to the EPA. According to the EPA page, only about 66 miles. So a Tesla Model 3 is almost 3 times more efficient.
      EVs and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles both have pluses and minuses, this is from the link provided at the bottom:

      For range, the hydrogen fuel celled Hyundai Nexio can go 414 miles, so it wins that battle.

      For emissions of manufacturing, making a 100kw lithium-ion battery that gives you a range of 250 miles, it produces 20 tonnes of CO2 in the process of making that battery.

      A typical battery lasts 150,000 miles, that equals 83kg/km of CO2. Add charging and that EV will produce 124g/km of CO2 over it's lifetime.

      The Toyota Mira produces 120g/km of CO2 for the same amount of time and including manufacture. Si between the two it looks like a draw.

      For price, EVs are cheaper to buy and you pay less to charge than it does to fill up with hydrogen. EVs win here.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...e-better%3famp

    10. 12-03-2019 07:36 AM #209
      Quote Originally Posted by Unilateral Phase Detractor View Post
      So I assume you’re sincere about hydrogen, but it’s been discussed ad nauseum around here why it’s an absurd challenge logistically and especially economically.

      If you're honest the same can be said about EVs. Economically they don't make sense, hence the requirements to make them and the subsidized discounts on them. Take both away today and they would disappear in some states and a few brands.

      And both EVs and hydrogen face infrastructure hurdles in different ways, but if you look at it, it's for the same reason. We're not going to dump money on infrastructure when there's very little demand.

      California is a panacea of special environment, political/regulatory aids to EVs. It's not an accurate picture of how EVs fare in the rest of the country. If you only sell 4,000 in my state and only a 1,000 in another, you're not going to attract funds for more infrastructure.

      You have to get people in mass to buy EVs and if you look around you, that's not what our market is pinning for. The best EV seller is one brand in a small segment selling mostly in one state.

      EVs have a long way to go to reach states that sell a few thousand EVs per year.

    11. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 08:14 AM #210
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      We can bridge. As you state yourself, the price of admission to EVs is high, it's a barrier. When that barrier falls we have no idea but can say with certainty is that it ain't soon.

      Nobody wanted a Chevy Cruz, an EV version even less so. That in no way is a knock on you, glad you likev the Volt, it's just that not enough people agree with that choice.

      And Indiana. Appreciate the fact that Indiana only sold 2,036 EVs for the whole of 2018. In my state, NC they only sold 4,712 and I rarely see an EV. You have to honestly admit those numbers represent the definition of not only a niche type of vehicle, but a very, very small one.

      So you see when we read about products like the Volt (that they discontinued) and how little EVs sell outside of California, how high the prices are and the absence of real infrastructure, there's more than enough physical data for a reasonable person to believe no, EVs aren't going to make big strides at all for decades.

      And too, appreciate that they may never take hold at all. There are companies out there hedging their bets and exploring other options.
      Indiana is one of the last areas where they’ll catch on, but for the first time I’m seeing them on a daily basis.

      As far as the Volt goes, it was a 4-seater sedan/hatch thingy in an era of larger and larger SUVs and cheap gas. Surprise? The concept behind it is quite sound, though. Drive to work on wall socket, take trips on goo from the ground. It works. It works well.

      Yes, prices do need to come down, but they certainly will over the next decade or so. Do they need to be as cheap as a gas car when they only cost about 1/3 as much to operate? I don’t know, but we’ll find out.


      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Yes I know how exponential growth works. That doesn't mean EVs are guaranteed to continue growing at that speed, or frankly at all.

      Your stance on EVs is damn near a scam. It's completely baseless but logically safe. If EVs don't grow you can just claim "just a small headwind- you'll see!" If they do you get to say "ha ha, told you so!" despite offering nothing of substance to validate said prediction. Then to cap it all off you resort to insults and proclaim EVs are good for us even if we "don't know it yet" like some kind of religious nutjob. It's OK to be a fan or believe in something without going completely crazy or becoming some kind of fanatic.
      A scam? That’s laughable. My stance is one of logic.

      100 years from now almost every transport will be electric. 10 years from now most new car sales will still be fueled, but electric cars will be getting a good foothold (that fits the definition of “fast” when it comes to switching the national fleet, btw). The only question is timeline.
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      12-03-2019 08:17 AM #211
      Quote Originally Posted by r286ps2 View Post
      I am not against EVs. I just do not understand why they are better than Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles which has zero emissions and no batteries. They are quick to fill up and go. Using battery powered cars is an old technology and there is only so much lithium in the world. Plus, using large batteries it is not really that great for the environment; they are a hazard to dispose of and not easy to work on for mechanics as they have high voltage which needs special equipment. In addition, the weight of the batteries take up room and space. My first Prius had pretty bad oversteer due to the weight of the battery in the rear of car. It was a good car for road trips.

      I just think all of this needs to be put into perspective. Electric cars and batteries existed 100 years ago.
      I'm somewhat skeptical on EVs but the hurdles for a charging grid, while still huge, are much smaller than they are for a hydrogen distribution network. We already have an electric grid which is much more of the way to serving the ~300 million passenger vehicles in the US than hydrogen. Terrible idea until someone cracks the cold fusion code of hydrolysis.

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      12-03-2019 08:21 AM #212
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      EVs and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles both have pluses and minuses, this is from the link provided at the bottom:

      For range, the hydrogen fuel celled Hyundai Nexio can go 414 miles, so it wins that battle.

      For emissions of manufacturing, making a 100kw lithium-ion battery that gives you a range of 250 miles, it produces 20 tonnes of CO2 in the process of making that battery.

      A typical battery lasts 150,000 miles, that equals 83kg/km of CO2. Add charging and that EV will produce 124g/km of CO2 over it's lifetime.

      The Toyota Mira produces 120g/km of CO2 for the same amount of time and including manufacture. Si between the two it looks like a draw.

      For price, EVs are cheaper to buy and you pay less to charge than it does to fill up with hydrogen. EVs win here.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...e-better%3famp
      I def need validation on those battery production CO2 numbers. You add electricity from fossil fuels on top and you're no better off than a comparable hybrid. That can't be right... that would undermine the whole premise of EVs.

      On one hand I doubt dude would tell a blatant lie... but on the other hand he has a clear vested interest in selling FCVs over EVs, so who knows? But that would be crazy if it were true, pretty much cutting down the only reason to bother with EVs at all.

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      12-03-2019 08:36 AM #213
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      The only question is timeline.
      Which will be dictated or driven by government mandate in order to keep it sustained and on track. Without govt mandates, regs, laws, etc...the transformation to all EV will be very, very slow.

      I'm fine with EVs and agree on the all EV in 100 yr timeframe, but when I talk to some EV folks who think and believe this needs to happen overnight, I sometimes wonder if they even know anything about how many registered cars/trucks/mc just the US has on the road, how long people keep their cars, and how many gas powered new car sales are already in the upcoming 5-10 year pipeline. In other words, if EV sales (not even market share) are at <10% of all cars/trucks in 2030 in the US...it wouldn't surprise me at all. This ain't happening at a fast rate until the infra is built out, prices come down and model variety goes up, and esp not without govt intervention.

    15. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 08:45 AM #214
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Which will be dictated or driven by government mandate in order to keep it sustained and on track. Without govt mandates, regs, laws, etc...the transformation to all EV will be very, very slow.

      I'm fine with EVs and agree on the all EV in 100 yr timeframe, but when I talk to some EV folks who think and believe this needs to happen overnight, I sometimes wonder if they even know anything about how many registered cars/trucks/mc just the US has on the road, how long people keep their cars, and how many gas powered new car sales are already in the upcoming 5-10 year pipeline. In other words, if EV sales (not even market share) are at <10% of all cars/trucks in 2030 in the US...it wouldn't surprise me at all. This ain't happening at a fast rate until the infra is built out, prices come down and model variety goes up, and esp not without govt intervention.
      12 years or so ago I bought a 50” TV on sale for $1800. It was a good deal at the time. My replacement I bought last year was $300 or so.

      Will this happen with batteries? Maybe not to this degree, but it is happening now. The cars themselves may not be cheaper yet, as the initial cost reduction will be absorbed by the manufacturers in order to make an actual profit, but it’s still coming down. Will they be as cheap as gassers in 10 years? I don’t know, but I also don’t know if they need to be.
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      12-03-2019 09:02 AM #215
      Again, we have no idea what the timeline is or what will happen with batteries. As more and more manufacturers ramp up EV production, battery prices could hit a floor well above the magic $100/kWh the industry has spoken to. Autonomous vehicles could upend transportation completely. Etc. If someone could make reliable predictions about the future they wouldn't be here schlepping on TCL, they'd be a ****ing billionaire.

      So no the fact that ICEVs displaced horses or some other completely unrelated technology with no govt subsidies adopted quickly has zero bearings on the future success and viability of EVs.

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      12-03-2019 09:37 AM #216
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      12 years or so ago I bought a 50” TV on sale for $1800. It was a good deal at the time. My replacement I bought last year was $300 or so.

      Will this happen with batteries? Maybe not to this degree, but it is happening now. The cars themselves may not be cheaper yet, as the initial cost reduction will be absorbed by the manufacturers in order to make an actual profit, but it’s still coming down. Will they be as cheap as gassers in 10 years? I don’t know, but I also don’t know if they need to be.
      We had this same TV discussion over Tgiving weekend. TV's are so cheap now compared to when we bought our Sony Bravia 10 or 12 years ago.

      I'd Love to see the same thing happen with EVs.

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      12-03-2019 09:48 AM #217
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      12 years or so ago I bought a 50” TV on sale for $1800. It was a good deal at the time. My replacement I bought last year was $300 or so.

      Will this happen with batteries? Maybe not to this degree, but it is happening now. The cars themselves may not be cheaper yet, as the initial cost reduction will be absorbed by the manufacturers in order to make an actual profit, but it’s still coming down. Will they be as cheap as gassers in 10 years? I don’t know, but I also don’t know if they need to be.
      The TV comparo is apples to oranges...

      Cars are $36.7K new on average and people keep them 11.5 years. They are not disposable consumer electronics. Just to show you the impact that regs have, Georgia had the exact same per capita new EV sales numbers as California a few years ago until they repealed the tax credit and replaced it with a registration fee. Sales plummeted 80% and have never recovered. Cost and model variety will be the deciding factor in making a dent in new car market share.

      But even with battery technology/improvements that happening in the near future - we're still not turning over 277M registered ICE cars in the US overnight, or in 10 years time to an even 50-50 EV/ICE ratio. The costs and shift in rethinking our 100 year car culture is going to be slower than some might want.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      We had this same TV discussion over Tgiving weekend. TV's are so cheap now compared to when we bought our Sony Bravia 10 or 12 years ago.

      I'd Love to see the same thing happen with EVs.
      I bought a $5500 Pioneer 50" plasma 12+ yrs ago and a better performing 65" samsung tv for $700 2 yrs ago. You aren't getting a new Tesla for 15% of 2019 prices in 10 yrs...
      Last edited by tbvvw; 12-03-2019 at 09:51 AM.

    19. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 09:50 AM #218
      Quote Originally Posted by r286ps2 View Post
      Using battery powered cars is an old technology and there is only so much lithium in the world. Plus, using large batteries it is not really that great for the environment; they are a hazard to dispose of
      When was the last time you saw a lithium ion battery pack from an EV in a landfill? You didn't because they don't go there, they get recycled or turned into commercial battery backups.




      and not easy to work on for mechanics as they have high voltage which needs special equipment.
      Have you watched Rich Rebuilds work on his salvage Teslas? Seems to do pretty good with just hand tools. and I've seen him completely remove and rebuild Tesla battery packs. It's not as hard as you think.

      In addition, the weight of the batteries take up room and space. My first Prius had pretty bad oversteer due to the weight of the battery in the rear of car. It was a good car for road trips.
      Never heard of any other EV having snap oversteer from poor mass distribution. Or any other reason. The batteries are usually quite low in the chassis and give excellent weight distribution, whether the car itself is FWD, RWD, or AWD. You had a Prius, but you obviously have never driven an actual EV.
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      12-03-2019 09:55 AM #219
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      The TV comparo is apples to oranges...

      Cars are $36.7K new on average and people keep them 11.5 years. They are not disposable consumer electronics. .

      EVs might just become disposable consumer electronics. They are fairly new tech in the modern era and new tech ALWAYS starts out on the high end and then gets cheaper, whether we're talking computers, TVs, MRI machines, etc. We've already doubled EV range in 5 years without doubling price. That's following the same trend as TVs and computers.

      As far as sales go, I'm Still not seeing ads for EVs on TV, even here in a major EV market. People don't buy in large numbers what they don't know exists, with the exception of the Tesla hype train.
      "Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection"

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      12-03-2019 10:00 AM #220
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      We had this same TV discussion over Tgiving weekend. TV's are so cheap now compared to when we bought our Sony Bravia 10 or 12 years ago.

      I'd Love to see the same thing happen with EVs.
      Would you?

      The reason TVs have become cheap is because they're now all 'smart'. Manufacturers collect copious amounts of personal data that they then sell to make up the $$$.
      Last edited by CostcoPizza; 12-03-2019 at 10:04 AM.

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      12-03-2019 10:16 AM #221
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      EVs might just become disposable consumer electronics. They are fairly new tech in the modern era and new tech ALWAYS starts out on the high end and then gets cheaper, whether we're talking computers, TVs, MRI machines, etc. We've already doubled EV range in 5 years without doubling price. That's following the same trend as TVs and computers.

      As far as sales go, I'm Still not seeing ads for EVs on TV, even here in a major EV market. People don't buy in large numbers what they don't know exists, with the exception of the Tesla hype train.
      They just might become that - I agree, but I still say you aren't turning over 277M registered cars and trucks in any short term timeline or even getting to a 50/50 net new sales ratio any time soon. As for sales here...I live in a large subdivision of $600-900K+ single family homes, 3+ cars, high incomes and educations and the dads all know what a Telsa is and can do. There's still only 2 of them around here...and new 5 series, E class, $75K SUVs coming into the neighborhood every month. $2.15 gas doesn't hurt either...

      My employer, a big 4 bank HQ provides employees an EV purchase experience with more perks than you would ever believe. They'll find you the EV you want, offer you financing you couldn't get anywhere else, handle all the tax credit paperwork for you, deliver the car to your door and best of all, provide you with a massively discounted garage space (half of what I pay) with free charging 24/7/365. All that for an educated, high income population...and those parking spots are still only at 50% at capacity. I walk past them every single day.
      The advertise that deal all the time internally. If that market segment ain't biting...then???

      I know they exist, have read everything anyone else here has. I still bought a 2016 A6 3.0T prestige, mint, loaded, 18K car this summer as my DD...cause it was less $ than a new base Model 3 after tax credit. And the annual ins difference doesn't help the Tesla cause either.

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      12-03-2019 10:26 AM #222
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      They just might become that - I agree, but I still say you aren't turning over 277M registered cars and trucks in any short term timeline or even getting to a 50/50 net new sales ratio any time soon.
      Well, just as a matter of physical ability, even if all manufacturers switched to 100% EV production overnight tomorrow, it'd still take 50 years of sales to convert the US fleet to EVs. So yeah, I've been saying that all along.


      As for sales here...I live in a large subdivision of $600-900K+ single family homes, 3+ cars, high incomes and educations and the dads all know what a Telsa is and can do. There's still only 2 of them around here...and new 5 series, E class, $75K SUVs coming into the neighborhood every month. $2.15 gas doesn't hurt either...

      My employer, a big 4 bank HQ provides employees an EV purchase experience with more perks than you would ever believe. They'll find you the EV you want, offer you financing you couldn't get anywhere else, handle all the tax credit paperwork for you, deliver the car to your door and best of all, provide you with a massively discounted garage space (half of what I pay) with free charging 24/7/365. All that for an educated, high income population...and those parking spots are still only at 50% at capacity. I walk past them every single day.
      The advertise that deal all the time internally. If that market segment ain't biting...then???

      Teslas are like Camrys around here. My own work parking lot has almost 2 dozen of them. That's a major government agency.

      I know they exist, have read everything anyone else here has. I still bought a 2016 A6 3.0T prestige, mint, loaded, 18K car this summer as my DD...cause it was less $ than a new base Model 3 after tax credit. And the annual ins difference doesn't help the Tesla cause either.
      There's more than Teslas out there. That's the point. No one KNOWS that, though. Bolts? I see a few. I test drove an Ioniq EV the other day. I doubt most people even know they MAKE the Ioniq in a full EV version. It leases at under $150 a month. In some places, it was leasing for under $100/mo. Why is that not the most popular car in it's size class? Though, to be fair, the local dealership is selling every one that can get in almost instantly, and mostly to out of state buyers. They could sell more, they just aren't available TO sell...
      "Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection"

    24. Junior Member
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      12-03-2019 10:32 AM #223
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      They just might become that - I agree, but I still say you aren't turning over 277M registered cars and trucks in any short term timeline or even getting to a 50/50 net new sales ratio any time soon. As for sales here...I live in a large subdivision of $600-900K+ single family homes, 3+ cars, high incomes and educations and the dads all know what a Telsa is and can do. There's still only 2 of them around here...and new 5 series, E class, $75K SUVs coming into the neighborhood every month. $2.15 gas doesn't hurt either...

      My employer, a big 4 bank HQ provides employees an EV purchase experience with more perks than you would ever believe. They'll find you the EV you want, offer you financing you couldn't get anywhere else, handle all the tax credit paperwork for you, deliver the car to your door and best of all, provide you with a massively discounted garage space (half of what I pay) with free charging 24/7/365. All that for an educated, high income population...and those parking spots are still only at 50% at capacity. I walk past them every single day.
      The advertise that deal all the time internally. If that market segment ain't biting...then???

      I know they exist, have read everything anyone else here has. I still bought a 2016 A6 3.0T prestige, mint, loaded, 18K car this summer as my DD...cause it was less $ than a new base Model 3 after tax credit. And the annual ins difference doesn't help the Tesla cause either.
      Doesn't really matter if there are no good options out there, besides a Model X or Model S. Not everyone wants a Tesla after all.

      Besides, people are brand snobs first and foremost, look for what is familiar, and for that "luxury" experience. I don't see any major manufactures historically offer an EV with the above. But then I may be wrong as I don't work for a major bank and bank immense amount of money.

    25. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 11:21 AM #224
      Tesla is already monitoring everything in your car. You don't get spontaneous over the air software updates without 24/7 connection and monitoring. So there's that.



      Speaking of TVs specifically...

      Quote Originally Posted by CostcoPizza View Post
      Would you?

      The reason TVs have become cheap is because they're now all 'smart'. Manufacturers collect copious amounts of personal data that they then sell to make up the $$$.
      But that's all a relatively new thing...

      Why are TVs so cheap now? Well, your smart TV is watching you and making extra money, too


      ...but the hardware price had dropped tremendously in the last decade since the big flat panel LED tvs hit the market.

      Are TVs really cheaper than ever? We go back a few decades to see
      November 23, 2017

      If you look at the best TVs on the market, they're still pretty expensive. But how does that compare to the best offerings from a few years ago? Most people don't remember what they paid for their last TV, never mind a TV from 20 years ago. For that matter, how much did the best TV cost in 1997?

      I'm glad you asked. ... [snip]

      Bigger, and eventually cheaper
      It's easy to say that TVs get cheaper every year. And as you can see, to an extent, that's absolutely true. More accurately, though, it's that they get cheaper per inch. From $110-per-square-inch in the 1950s to $1.24-per-inch or even less today. More than cheaper, TVs get bigger.

      The biggest disruptions come at the lower end of the market, something far harder to track. In the '50s, Westinghouse and RCA were some of the only manufacturers of this new technology. Now there are dozens of companies making TVs. You can get a great TV now for less than $0.50-per-square-inch of screen. That's an old trend, too. As new manufacturing powerhouses come in, they aim for the bottom of the market. They first offer something inexpensive, then later, something inexpensive and good, then eventually something good and expensive. It happened with Japan in the '70s and '80s, it happened with Korea in the '90s and 2000s, and it's happening now with China.

      But in general, prices drop, so companies create something new that's exciting. In this case that means bigger, better, and because so many parts are similar, cheaper. All this has happened before and will happen again.
      https://www.cnet.com/news/are-tvs-re...ecades-to-see/
      Why Are TVs So Cheap?
      At a time when it feels like nothing is getting cheaper, the real price of a TV has fallen more than 96 percent in the last 70 years.
      DECEMBER 27, 2011

      Three reasons: you know they'll keep getting cheaper, electronics manufacturers are getting more efficient, and all TVs are (basically) alike.

      615 television reuters.jpg
      Reuters

      At a time when it feels like nothing is getting cheaper, you can take solace in knowing there is a nearly essential product out there, which you might use every day, whose real price has fallen more than 96 percent in the last 70 years.

      It's your TV.

      In today's prices, a TV cost nearly $10,000 in 1939 when it was only 12 inches across and looked like a mini-fridge made out of mahogany. Today, you can find an infinitely superior version—flatter, clearer, more colorful, nearly three times the size—for about $300, writes Brent Cox in a wonderful post at The Awl.

      Television's incredible shrinking price tag isn't just a historical trend. If you want an up-and-close look, just check out your local consumer electronics store, where retailers are participating in the annual tradition of slashing TV prices, waiting a week, and then slashing them some more. The fire sale is fantastic news for consumers; less so for manufacturers and merchants who are already selling at hair-thin margins, as Andrew Martin explains for The New York Times. Why are high-tech televisions getting so cheap year-after-year (and, in December, week-after-week)? Three reasons:

      ... > https://www.theatlantic.com/business...-cheap/250562/


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      12-03-2019 11:26 AM #225
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      Teslas are like Camrys around here. My own work parking lot has almost 2 dozen of them. That's a major government agency.

      There's more than Teslas out there. That's the point. No one KNOWS that, though. Bolts? I see a few. I test drove an Ioniq EV the other day. I doubt most people even know they MAKE the Ioniq in a full EV version. It leases at under $150 a month. In some places, it was leasing for under $100/mo. Why is that not the most popular car in it's size class? Though, to be fair, the local dealership is selling every one that can get in almost instantly, and mostly to out of state buyers. They could sell more, they just aren't available TO sell...
      The gov agency probably has more to do with that than pure market choice. As for more than Tesla, sure, I know. For me, my driving habits, my family of 6, product variety, the cost...I'll pass for now. When a base Model X gets to within ~$10K of a loaded Yukon (that I also own)...I'll look again. Right now it's about $29K more - base X vs loaded Yukon.

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