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    Thread: The 2020 F1 Countdown Thread

    1. 01-08-2020 07:33 PM #251
      Quote Originally Posted by @McMike View Post
      So many things we well off the track. Take your pick. No need to split hairs.
      It was like rain showers up in this beeyotch, we needed some hair- larity

      Alonso sure is missing his seat in F1. He's changing wheels out in the desert. Hanging tough in 20th place:

      On day two, Dakar rookie Alonso had long delays when he broke a wheel and as a result, dropped down to 53rd due to the incident but has since then made steady progress, ending the stage 13th, and now lies 20th in the standings two hours and 50 minutes behind the overall leader who is fellow Spaniard and friend Carlos Sainz Snr. in the Mini.

      https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/01...so-up-to-20th/

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    3. 01-09-2020 06:27 AM #252
      Christian Horner predicted that the top drivers would stay in place a month ago, seems he may be right. Martin Brundle thought Verstappen or Leclerc would land at Mercedes. I thought Verstappen would too, not Leclerc though, you don't leave the red car when you've won poles, races and the Ferrari garage by soundly beating a 4X championship driver next to you.

      Brundle believes something has happened behind the scenes but looking at it, I think it was a good move by both young drivers:

      "I really would have expected one of Verstappen or Leclerc to rock up at Mercedes.

      “But it has cut Lewis’ options down, if indeed he hasn’t already signed with Mercedes-Benz longer term. Maybe the music stopped before Christmas, they all sat down and there is some embedded news we haven’t heard yet.

      “But these post-2020 deals have certainly happened earlier than I expected. I thought Max would see whether Red Bull could give him a championship-challenging car over the first few races of the year and then take a view.

      “So something has crystalised that earlier, which again makes my mind wonder about what is going on elsewhere.”

      http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/vi...join_Mercedes/

    4. Member Sump's Avatar
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      01-09-2020 09:10 AM #253
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      If he tanks as bad this year, he has his accolades but his wreck and spin compilations will precede them.

      The thread's Debbie Downer rant about the car is often used to bash Vettel ironically. I hope he gets his groove back for one more shot.
      I think he'll still go down as a 4x world champ and one of the best, if not the best at managing a race from the front.

      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      It's not bitching, it's constructive criticism. There's ways to make the sport better. And seeing how major investment from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Nissan, Porsche and Mercedes just went into Formula E and there isn't a single new team/investor wanting entry into F1 at this time, I would suggest to people like you that don't want any change at all start thinking more critically about that.

      I could car less if Vettel wins another race, I care that I already know who can and cannot win a race in an entire season before the season starts. If not liking that aspect of F1 is negative, take a poll and see who wins that debate.
      To play devils advocate here, when has this not been the case? I've been slowing catching up on old GPs and it's always 3 or so teams that have a shot to win a given race. Sure in the 60s/70s free for all there was more variety, but since 1990s has there been a case where more than a handful teams had a shot? Sure there will be tracks where some uncompetitive teams will pop up on the podium but especially for the end of season titles.

      This is not to say this can't change, but without spec racing I find that to be very difficult.

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      01-09-2020 01:10 PM #254
      Quote Originally Posted by Sump View Post
      To play devils advocate here, when has this not been the case? I've been slowing catching up on old GPs and it's always 3 or so teams that have a shot to win a given race. Sure in the 60s/70s free for all there was more variety, but since 1990s has there been a case where more than a handful teams had a shot? Sure there will be tracks where some uncompetitive teams will pop up on the podium but especially for the end of season titles.

      This is not to say this can't change, but without spec racing I find that to be very difficult.
      Just 10 years ago there where as many as 6 teams at the top that spent equal money, and tons of it. In 2008-09, for example, 6 teams (Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Renault) spent >$350M and Ferrari won the constructors even though they were only the 3rd highest spender, with Lewis winning the WDC at McLaren. And the team that spent the most that season left F1 because of under-performing (Toyota). Go look at the final constructor points standing for 2008 and compare to 2019. Despite the point finish differences, the disparity between these 2 "spend" eras is significant. So to your point, yes it's always been a few teams at the top, but at no time in recent memory has it been "just" 3 teams for this long with any fighting chance at all to get podiums. I believe the stat is something like the top 3 teams nowadays claim ~91% of all podiums for the past 5 years. It was never that top heavy in the past.

      And that lack of deeper competition down the grid drives my issue with the money and parity equation over the past ~5-6 seasons. And not just the massive drop off from the top 3 to 4th in spending, but that 5 through 10 aren't even there to win podiums, but just survive. The best of the rest () are there to break even on the balance sheet, not to get a trophy. No single team principal from teams other than the big 3 plus Renault go into any race weekend thinking about wins or podiums, they go into the race weekend thinking, "Can we qualify/finish 2 cars and score enough points to break even at year end?" They have no corp backing, just sponsor or points income - lose a sponsor and finish below your final results expectation and you are now screwed (like Haas). With that sort of longstanding mentality and reality, you might as well turn F1 into a formula with 3 car categories like LeMans. And god help us if M-B drops out altogether (a real possibility given Stuttgart's lean on Formula E cars/racing and really nothing left to prove). Also of importance is that none of the bottom 6 say they will ever spend more than they do right now (because of the current fiscal environment), and no team or investor or manufacturer currently not in F1 has any interest in joining F1 in this current lack of parity environment. So where does that leave F1? Hopefully with a budget cap. Even Ferrari supports the upcoming $175M team cap and will reduce their heritage bonus to "keep F1 from dying" (their words, not mine, see the link below). I can only hope F1 ratifies the cap and the top teams not bail at the last minute.

      https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...ict-budget-cap

      From a team spend, it's never been this top heavy. 2019 spend:

      1. Mercedes $484 million (17.89%)
      2. Ferrari $463 million (17.12%)
      3. Red Bull Racing $445 million (16.45%) - Is it really any surprise that the three teams that have combined to win the last ~140 races and the last 10 driver and constructor championships make up more than half of the entire field’s spending?
      4. Renault $272 million (10.06%) - And it is really a surprise of how big the drop-off is from the lowest of these three teams to the “best of the rest”?
      5. McLaren $269 million (9.94%)
      6. Racing Point $188 million (6.95%)
      7. Haas $173 million (6.40%) <--- that's the new budget cap figure, $175M
      8. Alfa Romeo Racing $141 million (5.21%)
      9. Toro Rosso $138 million (5.10%)
      10. Williams $132 million (4.88%)

      That ^^ is why I support the new regs and cap. You currently have 7 out of 10 teams at or above the cap figure - they will be fine. If the bottom 3 don't spend more, that's on them. Both Alfa and Toro Rosso might be able to pull resources from Ferrari and RBR, we'll see. Mercedes, Ferrari and RBR would still be a favorites for the first couple of yrs to win even with the money field being level due to the built-in advantages of the previous years' spend - but it won't be as easy as over time the playing field should be more level.

      I also believe the cap will entice more investment from new teams for the next decade the same reason if a current US pro sports team has 3-4 prospective buyers the moment a team goes on sale. The new owner knows he won't lose his shirt if they're not competitive on day 1. Here's 10 more reasons why F1 needs the cap and rules chages:

      https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...AVeVeydyS.html

      Back to Formula E component I mentioned: That series has new investment from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Nissan, & Porsche. With the global push towards a cleaner environment and new Euro/Asia laws and regs going into full effect in 2030, Formula 1 better be on its toes to sustain their massive competitive and TV/commercial advantage or F1 as we know it today will be gone. Having no new teams interested in joining in the current spend environment and with all that net new investment towards E racing speaks volumes as to why the current F1 model isn't sustainable. Then again, it might be doomed anyways if Euro governments ban any type if ICE/hybrid racing in the future? who knows. If Germany wants all net new car sales to be 100% EV in 2030, would they even support 1400hp cars w/ an exhaust system racing around a track?

      On an even deeper fiscal level, Williams as we all know is on life support, and our friends at Haas are not far behind. Their operation is leveraged on future debt that was facilitated based on 2018 WCC standing points and if they don't score xx points this upcoming season, they will be in really bad financial shape. And that will be difficult to do because as the spend chart above illustrates, what you put in, you get out. Almost an exact alignment.

      My $0.03.
      Last edited by tbvvw; 01-09-2020 at 01:14 PM.

    6. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      01-09-2020 01:19 PM #255
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Just 10 years ago there where as many as 6 teams at the top that spent equal money, and tons of it. In 2008-09, for example, 6 teams (Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Renault) spent >$350M and Ferrari won the constructors even though they were only the 3rd highest spender, with Lewis winning the WDC at McLaren. And the team that spent the most that season left F1 because of under-performing (Toyota). Go look at the final constructor points standing for 2008 and compare to 2019. Despite the point finish differences, the disparity between these 2 "spend" eras is significant. So to your point, yes it's always been a few teams at the top, but at no time in recent memory has it been "just" 3 teams for this long with any fighting chance at all to get podiums. I believe the stat is something like the top 3 teams nowadays claim ~91% of all podiums for the past 5 years. It was never that top heavy in the past.

      And that lack of deeper competition down the grid drives my issue with the money and parity equation over the past ~5-6 seasons. And not just the massive drop off from the top 3 to 4th in spending, but that 5 through 10 aren't even there to win podiums, but just survive. The best of the rest () are there to break even on the balance sheet, not to get a trophy. No single team principal from teams other than the big 3 plus Renault go into any race weekend thinking about wins or podiums, they go into the race weekend thinking, "Can we qualify/finish 2 cars and score enough points to break even at year end?" They have no corp backing, just sponsor or points income - lose a sponsor and finish below your final results expectation and you are now screwed (like Haas). With that sort of longstanding mentality and reality, you might as well turn F1 into a formula with 3 car categories like LeMans. And god help us if M-B drops out altogether (a real possibility given Stuttgart's lean on Formula E cars/racing and really nothing left to prove). Also of importance is that none of the bottom 6 say they will ever spend more than they do right now (because of the current fiscal environment), and no team or investor or manufacturer currently not in F1 has any interest in joining F1 in this current lack of parity environment. So where does that leave F1? Hopefully with a budget cap. Even Ferrari supports the upcoming $175M team cap and will reduce their heritage bonus to "keep F1 from dying" (their words, not mine, see the link below). I can only hope F1 ratifies the cap and the top teams not bail at the last minute.

      https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...ict-budget-cap

      From a team spend, it's never been this top heavy. 2019 spend:

      1. Mercedes $484 million (17.89%)
      2. Ferrari $463 million (17.12%)
      3. Red Bull Racing $445 million (16.45%) - Is it really any surprise that the three teams that have combined to win the last ~140 races and the last 10 driver and constructor championships make up more than half of the entire field’s spending?
      4. Renault $272 million (10.06%) - And it is really a surprise of how big the drop-off is from the lowest of these three teams to the “best of the rest”?
      5. McLaren $269 million (9.94%)
      6. Racing Point $188 million (6.95%)
      7. Haas $173 million (6.40%) <--- that's the new budget cap figure, $175M
      8. Alfa Romeo Racing $141 million (5.21%)
      9. Toro Rosso $138 million (5.10%)
      10. Williams $132 million (4.88%)

      That ^^ is why I support the new regs and cap. You currently have 7 out of 10 teams at or above the cap figure - they will be fine. If the bottom 3 don't spend more, that's on them. Both Alfa and Toro Rosso might be able to pull resources from Ferrari and RBR, we'll see. Mercedes, Ferrari and RBR would still be a favorites for the first couple of yrs to win even with the money field being level due to the built-in advantages of the previous years' spend - but it won't be as easy as over time the playing field should be more level.

      I also believe the cap will entice more investment from new teams for the next decade the same reason if a current US pro sports team has 3-4 prospective buyers the moment a team goes on sale. The new owner knows he won't lose his shirt if they're not competitive on day 1. Here's 10 more reasons why F1 needs the cap and rules chages:

      https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...AVeVeydyS.html

      Back to Formula E component I mentioned: That series has new investment from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Nissan, & Porsche. With the global push towards a cleaner environment and new Euro/Asia laws and regs going into full effect in 2030, Formula 1 better be on its toes to sustain their massive competitive and TV/commercial advantage or F1 as we know it today will be gone. Having no new teams interested in joining in the current spend environment and with all that net new investment towards E racing speaks volumes as to why the current F1 model isn't sustainable. Then again, it might be doomed anyways if Euro governments ban any type if ICE/hybrid racing in the future? who knows. If Germany wants all net new car sales to be 100% EV in 2030, would they even support 1400hp cars w/ an exhaust system racing around a track?

      On an even deeper fiscal level, Williams as we all know is on life support, and our friends at Haas are not far behind. Their operation is leveraged on future debt that was facilitated based on 2018 WCC standing points and if they don't score xx points this upcoming season, they will be in really bad financial shape. And that will be difficult to do because as the spend chart above illustrates, what you put in, you get out. Almost an exact alignment.

      My $0.03.
      on the whole, this is why i am not a fan of open rule sets, and much prefer spec, BOP or much more controlled (like indycar) rules. the older and more mature a racer i am, the more i argue for spec racing.

      the problem is its a positive feedback loop. if your doing well, you can afford to do even better. if your not doing well, you can't afford to do any better. and the only thing that "fixes" that is either a totally lucking out on an unknown driver or better, designer (next to impossible), or loose literally hundreds of millions of dollars for like a decade in order to turn the ship around.

      at least with spec racing, BOP, or to a lesser extent, indycar, the drivers and crew make the difference, not the accountants. everyone thinks its the engineers who matter, but in reality, you just buy more and better engineers ... so its really just who has the money to throw around. thats why you get these dynasties.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    7. Member Sump's Avatar
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      01-09-2020 01:26 PM #256
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Just 10 years ago there where as many as 6 teams at the top that spent equal money, and tons of it. In 2008-09, for example, 6 teams (Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Renault) spent >$350M and Ferrari won the constructors even though they were only the 3rd highest spender, with Lewis winning the WDC at McLaren. And the team that spent the most that season left F1 because of under-performing (Toyota). Go look at the final constructor points standing for 2008 and compare to 2019. Despite the point finish differences, the disparity between these 2 "spend" eras is significant. So to your point, yes it's always been a few teams at the top, but at no time in recent memory has it been "just" 3 teams for this long with any fighting chance at all to get podiums. I believe the stat is something like the top 3 teams nowadays claim ~91% of all podiums for the past 5 years. It was never that top heavy in the past.

      And that lack of deeper competition down the grid drives my issue with the money and parity equation over the past ~5-6 seasons. And not just the massive drop off from the top 3 to 4th in spending, but that 5 through 10 aren't even there to win podiums, but just survive. The best of the rest () are there to break even on the balance sheet, not to get a trophy. No single team principal from teams other than the big 3 plus Renault go into any race weekend thinking about wins or podiums, they go into the race weekend thinking, "Can we qualify/finish 2 cars and score enough points to break even at year end?" They have no corp backing, just sponsor or points income - lose a sponsor and finish below your final results expectation and you are now screwed (like Haas). With that sort of longstanding mentality and reality, you might as well turn F1 into a formula with 3 car categories like LeMans. And god help us if M-B drops out altogether (a real possibility given Stuttgart's lean on Formula E cars/racing and really nothing left to prove). Also of importance is that none of the bottom 6 say they will ever spend more than they do right now (because of the current fiscal environment), and no team or investor or manufacturer currently not in F1 has any interest in joining F1 in this current lack of parity environment. So where does that leave F1? Hopefully with a budget cap. Even Ferrari supports the upcoming $175M team cap and will reduce their heritage bonus to "keep F1 from dying" (their words, not mine, see the link below). I can only hope F1 ratifies the cap and the top teams not bail at the last minute.

      https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...ict-budget-cap

      From a team spend, it's never been this top heavy. 2019 spend:

      1. Mercedes $484 million (17.89%)
      2. Ferrari $463 million (17.12%)
      3. Red Bull Racing $445 million (16.45%) - Is it really any surprise that the three teams that have combined to win the last ~140 races and the last 10 driver and constructor championships make up more than half of the entire field’s spending?
      4. Renault $272 million (10.06%) - And it is really a surprise of how big the drop-off is from the lowest of these three teams to the “best of the rest”?
      5. McLaren $269 million (9.94%)
      6. Racing Point $188 million (6.95%)
      7. Haas $173 million (6.40%) <--- that's the new budget cap figure, $175M
      8. Alfa Romeo Racing $141 million (5.21%)
      9. Toro Rosso $138 million (5.10%)
      10. Williams $132 million (4.88%)

      That ^^ is why I support the new regs and cap. You currently have 7 out of 10 teams at or above the cap figure - they will be fine. If the bottom 3 don't spend more, that's on them. Both Alfa and Toro Rosso might be able to pull resources from Ferrari and RBR, we'll see. Mercedes, Ferrari and RBR would still be a favorites for the first couple of yrs to win even with the money field being level due to the built-in advantages of the previous years' spend - but it won't be as easy as over time the playing field should be more level.

      I also believe the cap will entice more investment from new teams for the next decade the same reason if a current US pro sports team has 3-4 prospective buyers the moment a team goes on sale. The new owner knows he won't lose his shirt if they're not competitive on day 1. Here's 10 more reasons why F1 needs the cap and rules chages:

      https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...AVeVeydyS.html

      Back to Formula E component I mentioned: That series has new investment from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Nissan, & Porsche. With the global push towards a cleaner environment and new Euro/Asia laws and regs going into full effect in 2030, Formula 1 better be on its toes to sustain their massive competitive and TV/commercial advantage or F1 as we know it today will be gone. Having no new teams interested in joining in the current spend environment and with all that net new investment towards E racing speaks volumes as to why the current F1 model isn't sustainable. Then again, it might be doomed anyways if Euro governments ban any type if ICE/hybrid racing in the future? who knows. If Germany wants all net new car sales to be 100% EV in 2030, would they even support 1400hp cars w/ an exhaust system racing around a track?

      On an even deeper fiscal level, Williams as we all know is on life support, and our friends at Haas are not far behind. Their operation is leveraged on future debt that was facilitated based on 2018 WCC standing points and if they don't score xx points this upcoming season, they will be in really bad financial shape. And that will be difficult to do because as the spend chart above illustrates, what you put in, you get out. Almost an exact alignment.

      My $0.03.
      Nice writeup there and agreed a properly implemented cap and a keen eye on proper directional/strategic decisions to keep F1 relevant and 'pinnacle' of motorsport.

    8. Turtles walk slowly, but get angry fast! Smooremin's Avatar
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      01-09-2020 01:29 PM #257
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Just 10 years ago there where as many as 6 teams at the top that spent equal money, and tons of it. In 2008-09, for example, 6 teams (Ferrari, McLaren, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Renault) spent >$350M and Ferrari won the constructors even though they were only the 3rd highest spender, with Lewis winning the WDC at McLaren. And the team that spent the most that season left F1 because of under-performing (Toyota). Go look at the final constructor points standing for 2008 and compare to 2019. Despite the point finish differences, the disparity between these 2 "spend" eras is significant. So to your point, yes it's always been a few teams at the top, but at no time in recent memory has it been "just" 3 teams for this long with any fighting chance at all to get podiums. I believe the stat is something like the top 3 teams nowadays claim ~91% of all podiums for the past 5 years. It was never that top heavy in the past.

      And that lack of deeper competition down the grid drives my issue with the money and parity equation over the past ~5-6 seasons. And not just the massive drop off from the top 3 to 4th in spending, but that 5 through 10 aren't even there to win podiums, but just survive. The best of the rest () are there to break even on the balance sheet, not to get a trophy. No single team principal from teams other than the big 3 plus Renault go into any race weekend thinking about wins or podiums, they go into the race weekend thinking, "Can we qualify/finish 2 cars and score enough points to break even at year end?" They have no corp backing, just sponsor or points income - lose a sponsor and finish below your final results expectation and you are now screwed (like Haas). With that sort of longstanding mentality and reality, you might as well turn F1 into a formula with 3 car categories like LeMans. And god help us if M-B drops out altogether (a real possibility given Stuttgart's lean on Formula E cars/racing and really nothing left to prove). Also of importance is that none of the bottom 6 say they will ever spend more than they do right now (because of the current fiscal environment), and no team or investor or manufacturer currently not in F1 has any interest in joining F1 in this current lack of parity environment. So where does that leave F1? Hopefully with a budget cap. Even Ferrari supports the upcoming $175M team cap and will reduce their heritage bonus to "keep F1 from dying" (their words, not mine, see the link below). I can only hope F1 ratifies the cap and the top teams not bail at the last minute.

      https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...ict-budget-cap

      From a team spend, it's never been this top heavy. 2019 spend:

      1. Mercedes $484 million (17.89%)
      2. Ferrari $463 million (17.12%)
      3. Red Bull Racing $445 million (16.45%) - Is it really any surprise that the three teams that have combined to win the last ~140 races and the last 10 driver and constructor championships make up more than half of the entire field’s spending?
      4. Renault $272 million (10.06%) - And it is really a surprise of how big the drop-off is from the lowest of these three teams to the “best of the rest”?
      5. McLaren $269 million (9.94%)
      6. Racing Point $188 million (6.95%)
      7. Haas $173 million (6.40%) <--- that's the new budget cap figure, $175M
      8. Alfa Romeo Racing $141 million (5.21%)
      9. Toro Rosso $138 million (5.10%)
      10. Williams $132 million (4.88%)

      That ^^ is why I support the new regs and cap. You currently have 7 out of 10 teams at or above the cap figure - they will be fine. If the bottom 3 don't spend more, that's on them. Both Alfa and Toro Rosso might be able to pull resources from Ferrari and RBR, we'll see. Mercedes, Ferrari and RBR would still be a favorites for the first couple of yrs to win even with the money field being level due to the built-in advantages of the previous years' spend - but it won't be as easy as over time the playing field should be more level.

      I also believe the cap will entice more investment from new teams for the next decade the same reason if a current US pro sports team has 3-4 prospective buyers the moment a team goes on sale. The new owner knows he won't lose his shirt if they're not competitive on day 1. Here's 10 more reasons why F1 needs the cap and rules chages:

      https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...AVeVeydyS.html

      Back to Formula E component I mentioned: That series has new investment from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes, Nissan, & Porsche. With the global push towards a cleaner environment and new Euro/Asia laws and regs going into full effect in 2030, Formula 1 better be on its toes to sustain their massive competitive and TV/commercial advantage or F1 as we know it today will be gone. Having no new teams interested in joining in the current spend environment and with all that net new investment towards E racing speaks volumes as to why the current F1 model isn't sustainable. Then again, it might be doomed anyways if Euro governments ban any type if ICE/hybrid racing in the future? who knows. If Germany wants all net new car sales to be 100% EV in 2030, would they even support 1400hp cars w/ an exhaust system racing around a track?

      On an even deeper fiscal level, Williams as we all know is on life support, and our friends at Haas are not far behind. Their operation is leveraged on future debt that was facilitated based on 2018 WCC standing points and if they don't score xx points this upcoming season, they will be in really bad financial shape. And that will be difficult to do because as the spend chart above illustrates, what you put in, you get out. Almost an exact alignment.

      My $0.03.
      See, this is what is funny to me. We are fans of different teams and different drivers, and I wholeheartedly, agree with all of this. It amazes me that some people (read:person) dont want to or choose not to, see the light....
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Asking OT for relationship advice makes about as much sense as asking TCL what car to buy.
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      About 5 oclock I realized I needed to go to Costco for some white people stuff.

    9. 01-09-2020 01:54 PM #258
      Quote Originally Posted by Smooremin View Post
      See, this is what is funny to me. We are fans of different teams and different drivers, and I wholeheartedly, agree with all of this. It amazes me that some people (read:person) dont want to or choose not to, see the light....
      vwpiloto posted this a page or so ago, it's Martin Brundle with Chris Harris. Give the whole thing a listen, it's worth the time, and especially at 32:54 and 33:24 minutes in:


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      01-09-2020 02:31 PM #259
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      I've heard the V10s and V8s in person several times but haven't been to a race since the hybrid era started.
      I was lucky enough to hear all the new engine configurations run at Phoenix in 1989, the first race in the first year after the "turbo" era. There were V12s from Ferrari and Lamborghini, V10s from Honda and Renault, and V8s from Ford and Judd - all 3.5L. Man what an experience, the V10s especially - that was a genuinely new cylinder configuration for modern race cars at the time and they sounded like space ships going by.

      Engines were only turning about 13,000 back then but they were loud as hell regardless. Geez I even heard one of the handful of laps the Life W-12 ran there (edit - in 1990). Sounded like a sick moose and performed like one, but a rare experience though.

      Current V6 engines sound like high revving Buicks to me.
      Last edited by DerSpiegel; 01-09-2020 at 04:07 PM.

    11. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      01-09-2020 02:35 PM #260
      Quote Originally Posted by DerSpiegel View Post
      IGeez I even heard one of the handful of laps the Life W-12 ran there. Sounded like a sick moose and performance was similar. A rare experience though.

      Current V6 engines sound like high revving Buicks to me.
      I've never heard a racing W-12, nor have I heard a sick moose. Would you have any other references I can relate to?

    12. Just Milking my Carrot in the Honda break room. Metallitubby's Avatar
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      01-09-2020 02:39 PM #261
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      Would you have any other references I can relate to?
      * My contributions are not representative of American Honda

    13. 01-09-2020 02:44 PM #262
      Quote Originally Posted by Metallitubby View Post

      Listen for the gear change

    14. Member DerSpiegel's Avatar
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      01-09-2020 03:54 PM #263
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      I've never heard a racing W-12, nor have I heard a sick moose. Would you have any other references I can relate to?

      Haha the below audio is remarkably accurate. Also, here's a squib on the Life (or Death) W-12.


      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Last edited by DerSpiegel; 01-09-2020 at 05:26 PM.

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      01-09-2020 04:31 PM #264
      Quote Originally Posted by Smooremin View Post
      We are fans of different teams and different drivers...
      Funny, I thought we both rooted for Rene Rast in the Team Rosberg Audi?

    16. Turtles walk slowly, but get angry fast! Smooremin's Avatar
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      01-09-2020 04:35 PM #265
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Funny, I thought we both rooted for Rene Rast in the Team Rosberg Audi?
      touché


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      01-09-2020 05:01 PM #266
      I was lucky enough to hear the V8 on Mark Webber's RB3 back in 2007 on a promotion event and will never forget that sound. I had a press pass that day and was inside the "pit lane" and that's the closest i ever got to an F1 car.
      I wouldn't mind getting that sound back, but F1 was always about the pinnacle of hi tech used on cars. And still is, no matter if we like it or not. And unless FE starts some real racing, on real circuits and for a reasonable amount of racing time, F1 will have no trouble keeping it this way.
      As for the fans, if we get proper racing with electric cars, I guess we won't have a problem with them.
      After all, our everyday cars now produce artificial engine or exhaust sounds on our speakers. And we still buy them. So all FE will need is good speakers!
      But for now I am more interested on who will go where for the seasons after 2021. Contracts are there to be broken, no matter how expensive they are. And if someone sees no future where he drives, he won't mind paying some extra cash to break free.

      Στάλθηκε από το SM-J710F μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

    18. 01-09-2020 05:11 PM #267
      Quote Originally Posted by georgeboole View Post
      I was lucky enough to hear the V8 on Mark Webber's RB3 back in 2007 on a promotion event and will never forget that sound. I had a press pass that day and was inside the "pit lane" and that's the closest i ever got to an F1 car.
      I wouldn't mind getting that sound back, but F1 was always about the pinnacle of hi tech used on cars. And still is, no matter if we like it or not. And unless FE starts some real racing, on real circuits and for a reasonable amount of racing time, F1 will have no trouble keeping it this way.
      As for the fans, if we get proper racing with electric cars, I guess we won't have a problem with them.
      After all, our everyday cars now produce artificial engine or exhaust sounds on our speakers. And we still buy them. So all FE will need is good speakers!
      But for now I am more interested on who will go where for the seasons after 2021. Contracts are there to be broken, no matter how expensive they are. And if someone sees no future where he drives, he won't mind paying some extra cash to break free.

      Στάλθηκε από το SM-J710F μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk
      Exactly, there's lots of good stories in F1 to follow with silly season around the corner.

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      01-10-2020 10:10 AM #268

    20. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      01-10-2020 10:20 AM #269
      That graphic is silly. In Schumachers time the average age of an F1 driver starting was much older. Now it's common place to have 18-20 years starting in F1. It was controversial when Alonso started F1

    21. 01-10-2020 10:34 AM #270
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      That graphic is silly. In Schumachers time the average age of an F1 driver starting was much older. Now it's common place to have 18-20 years starting in F1. It was controversial when Alonso started F1
      I don't know if it is "silly". It certainly provides a bit of contrast in the starting age as you point out. I think it is pretty interesting.

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      01-10-2020 10:38 AM #271
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      That graphic is silly. In Schumachers time the average age of an F1 driver starting was much older. Now it's common place to have 18-20 years starting in F1. It was controversial when Alonso started F1
      It was even more controversial when Kimi started. Granted, he was 21, but he had only raced a handful of times. Funny to think he's the grandpa of F1 now.
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    23. Member DerSpiegel's Avatar
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      01-10-2020 10:56 AM #272
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      In Schumachers time the average age of an F1 driver starting was much older.
      Same thing with Indycar back in the day; in 1991 when Roger Penske brought in Paul Tracy at age 22 many folks in the paddock thought it was a bit reckless - a guy that young wasn't ready for that level of racing.
      Last edited by DerSpiegel; 01-10-2020 at 11:04 AM.

    24. 01-10-2020 11:14 AM #273
      Quote Originally Posted by roman16v View Post
      As posted earlier, I think this gives proper perspective:

      Verstappen (Australia 2015 - USA 2019)

      Titles: 0
      Wins: 7
      Poles: 1
      Fastest laps: 7
      Podiums: 29
      Races led: 18

      Hamilton (Australia 2007 - Germany 2012)

      Titles: 1
      Wins: 18
      Poles: 21
      Fastest laps: 11
      Podiums: 46
      Races led: 42

      Races led: 42

      Vettel (USA 2007 - USA 2012)

      Titles: 2 (3rd title secured in 101st race)
      Wins: 26
      Poles: 36
      Fastest laps: 15
      Podiums: 46
      Races led: 47

      Alonso (Australia 2001 - Italy 2007)

      Titles: 2
      Wins: 19
      Poles: 17
      Fastest laps: 11
      Podiums: 46
      Races led: 47

      Schumacher (Belgium 1991 - Japan 1997)

      Titles: 2
      Wins: 27
      Poles: 17
      Fastest laps: 28
      Podiums: 54
      Races led: 46

      https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4...0-grands-prix/

    25. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      01-10-2020 11:28 AM #274
      Quote Originally Posted by DerSpiegel View Post
      Same thing with Indycar back in the day; in 1991 when Roger Penske brought in Paul Tracy at age 22 many folks in the paddock thought it was a bit reckless - a guy that young wasn't ready for that level of racing.
      And I think it still holds true. Look how much Verstappen has matured. Could be the sport or his age now, who knows? But I definitely think 17/18 is just a bit young (mentally) to handle F1.

    26. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      01-10-2020 11:42 AM #275
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      And I think it still holds true. Look how much Verstappen has matured. Could be the sport or his age now, who knows? But I definitely think 17/18 is just a bit young (mentally) to handle F1.
      Ok Boomer.

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