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    Thread: F80/2 M3/4 - How are these cars holding up?

    1. Member kiznarsh's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 02:39 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by fknlo View Post
      One day I'll grow the balls to do this or at least have someone that's experienced in drilling carbon fiber do it.
      I have a feeling that's not gonna play well when selling the car, unless the buyer plans on keeping the roof rack on.

      I guess you could always fill them in with carbon fiber roof plugs.

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    3. Member phaedrus711's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:45 AM #102
      After being a BMW Tech for quite some time, reading threads like these truly hurts my soul.

      Never change, Car Lounge, never change...
      Last edited by phaedrus711; 12-19-2019 at 04:07 AM.

    4. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 10:10 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by kiznarsh View Post
      I have a feeling that's not gonna play well when selling the car, unless the buyer plans on keeping the roof rack on.

      I guess you could always fill them in with carbon fiber roof plugs.
      It's not as extreme of an operation as fknlo seems to suggest.

      And the holes are hidden under the covers so the next buyer won't even know they are there unless you pointed it out.

      https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ight=roof+rack

    5. Member GLI Dan's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 11:47 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by fknlo View Post
      I wanted to consider the ATS-V but there were zero within any reasonable distance to test drive. the interiors in all of the ones I looked at online were also smudged up and dirty, and not just the plethora of piano black plastic either. Look at the steering wheel buttons on that one you linked. I swear they're all like that somewhere too.

      A little known thing about the F8x cars with the carbon roof is that there isn't a roof rack option for them. The standard 3 series as well as the sunroof F8x cars all have hardpoints for a roof rack. The carbon roof cars have some of the hardware there, but there are no holes in the roof. At some point someone decided to just drill down to them and install the factory nuts. Several other people have also done this now. I'm still thinking this is the way to go over the seasucker stuff or a hitch mount rack that will really only be good for bikes. Here's the latest guy drilling holes in his roof:


      One day I'll grow the balls to do this or at least have someone that's experienced in drilling carbon fiber do it.
      I have no need for a roof rack, good to know none the less, but I would not drill my roof for that.

      Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus711 View Post
      After being a BMW Tech for quite some time, reading threads like these truly hurts my soul.

      Never change, Car Lounge, never change...
      Come on now...you really need to expand on that. What hurts your soul, Our willingness to deal with silly issues or our ability to blow silly issues out of proportion?
      Quote Originally Posted by DzlDub View Post
      Cars are ****ing awesome, anyone who doesn't want a car is a communist.
      Disclaimer: Generally, I strongly dislike people.
      Current: 18' Infiniti Q50 Red Sport
      Prior Vehicles: 13' E92 335i M-Sport l 04' E46 330ci SMG l 04' MKIV GLI 1.8t 6spd

    6. Member fknlo's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 12:09 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      It's not as extreme of an operation as fknlo seems to suggest.

      And the holes are hidden under the covers so the next buyer won't even know they are there unless you pointed it out.

      https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...ight=roof+rack
      Even if a prospective buyer flipped the tabs up they'd see something that looked like it could come from the factory as you're just putting OEM hardware there.

    7. Member phaedrus711's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 11:21 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by GLI Dan View Post
      ... Our willingness to deal with silly issues or our ability to blow silly issues out of proportion?
      Yes.


      Honestly, IMHO, there were 4 types of car owners that I saw:
      1) Total cheap bastard that wouldnt put a single cent into a damn thing, regardless if it caught fire, flipped over, killed their family, and blew up at the same time (~15% of total customers)

      2) Average Joe that would somewhat maintain vehicle but would immediately balk at any repair that their magic 8-ball didnt forecast years in the future. ~25% repair approval rate at best. (~70% of total customers)

      3) More interested enthusiast that understood BMW was a luxury brand and appreciated certain aspects of the entire process. Most approved all repairs, but overall an intelligent person. Mostly forum-minded/enthusiast people here. (10% of total customers)

      4) Pure enthusiast BMW fan-boy/girl/thing/it that would be annoyed if you didnt assume everything should be repaired without bothering them because they would obviously do it. Easy to maintain vehicles, usually in stunning condition with low mileage and detailed on a regular basis. (5% of total)



      From my experience, most car loungerz fall in category #2 with a VERY small percentage in #3.

    8. Member Dandbest's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 09:45 AM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus711 View Post
      Yes.


      Honestly, IMHO, there were 4 types of car owners that I saw:
      1) Total cheap bastard that wouldnt put a single cent into a damn thing, regardless if it caught fire, flipped over, killed their family, and blew up at the same time (~15% of total customers)

      2) Average Joe that would somewhat maintain vehicle but would immediately balk at any repair that their magic 8-ball didnt forecast years in the future. ~25% repair approval rate at best. (~70% of total customers)

      3) More interested enthusiast that understood BMW was a luxury brand and appreciated certain aspects of the entire process. Most approved all repairs, but overall an intelligent person. Mostly forum-minded/enthusiast people here. (10% of total customers)

      4) Pure enthusiast BMW fan-boy/girl/thing/it that would be annoyed if you didnt assume everything should be repaired without bothering them because they would obviously do it. Easy to maintain vehicles, usually in stunning condition with low mileage and detailed on a regular basis. (5% of total)



      From my experience, most car loungerz fall in category #2 with a VERY small percentage in #3.
      Being in the car business but with another manufacturer, I agree with you. With that said, this thread was about how the cars hold up. In other words, problems and so on. Pretty sure that's the input the OP and the rest of us were looking for. Being a BMW tech, can you share your experience?

    9. Member GLI Dan's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 11:04 AM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus711 View Post
      Yes.


      Honestly, IMHO, there were 4 types of car owners that I saw:
      1) Total cheap bastard that wouldnt put a single cent into a damn thing, regardless if it caught fire, flipped over, killed their family, and blew up at the same time (~15% of total customers)

      2) Average Joe that would somewhat maintain vehicle but would immediately balk at any repair that their magic 8-ball didnt forecast years in the future. ~25% repair approval rate at best. (~70% of total customers)

      3) More interested enthusiast that understood BMW was a luxury brand and appreciated certain aspects of the entire process. Most approved all repairs, but overall an intelligent person. Mostly forum-minded/enthusiast people here. (10% of total customers)

      4) Pure enthusiast BMW fan-boy/girl/thing/it that would be annoyed if you didnt assume everything should be repaired without bothering them because they would obviously do it. Easy to maintain vehicles, usually in stunning condition with low mileage and detailed on a regular basis. (5% of total)



      From my experience, most car loungerz fall in category #2 with a VERY small percentage in #3.
      For those individuals not in categories 3/4, how many of those vehicles were 7+ years old? The kind of vehicle bought on a BHPH lot for cheap? Also, what region are you located in?

      The idea of dropping my car off for a problem and not having it repaired is silly. Why the hell would I waste my time bringing it there otherwise.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dandbest View Post
      Being in the car business but with another manufacturer, I agree with you. With that said, this thread was about how the cars hold up. In other words, problems and so on. Pretty sure that's the input the OP and the rest of us were looking for. Being a BMW tech, can you share your experience?
      Mostly this^ The V8 tt's are known to be nightmares, the N54 out of the gate was a nightmare, so this being BMW's first turbo 6 M car, I'm wondering if they figured it out by this point and its a pretty stout machine or if it is also something to avoid.
      Quote Originally Posted by DzlDub View Post
      Cars are ****ing awesome, anyone who doesn't want a car is a communist.
      Disclaimer: Generally, I strongly dislike people.
      Current: 18' Infiniti Q50 Red Sport
      Prior Vehicles: 13' E92 335i M-Sport l 04' E46 330ci SMG l 04' MKIV GLI 1.8t 6spd

    10. Member phaedrus711's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 12:13 PM #109
      I left BMW after being a tech for nearly a decade and a half. From my experience, the first generation of any new model always had teething issues (as is typical with nearly every manufacturer), yet the customers for BMW always seem more vocal about said issues. The drivetrains for most all of the models were overall pretty good, with smaller issues that were usually caught with regular service visits (leaking coolant from intercoolers, running issues from ignition coil or fuel injector failure, MAP/MAF sensors, etc). Due to the large number of modules located everywhere, most of the time a software update would help rectify problems. Sometimes a module would a fail, cause an issue that was obvious (aka adaptive headlamp) and would then force other modules to be updated with the same software level so as to communicate correctly.

      From what I saw:

      -Silly, easy issues from 0-30k miles (must set proper maintenance schedule and stick with it)
      -If its going to happen, most serious problems from 30k-75k
      -Difficult to predict issues from 75k+ on

      Every time I would read about someone posting their problems online, they usually fell in category #2 of my previous post. It was usually a known issue, had they left their vehicle at the dealer for long enough to fix the thing completely, but they would rather inflate whatever situation happened and get a non-professional diagnosis thru the webz.


      TLDR:
      -Drivetrains pretty good with rare occurrence of mechanical failures like bearings/belts/pulleys and more prevalent issues such as sensors, fluid leaks, and software adaptations
      -Body built supremely well. Water leaks rare, usually able to be repaired with simple gasket replacement. Rattles/noises can be common due to so many trim items/panels
      -Suspensions are great. Brake backing plates known to catch rocks and create rattles, but that is common on a couple manufacturers.
      -Electronics are OK at best. Most, if not all BMWs made after 2010 will inevitably have electronic/modules issues and their severity is directly related to your luck.


      That being said, I will never own at BMW made after the E90 (current DD) because they pump so many electronics and subsystems into them. Also, BMW states "lifetime" as 100k miles... most components would be lucky to make that mark (bushings, seals, gaskets, sensors, clutches, coolers, etc)
      Last edited by phaedrus711; 12-20-2019 at 06:14 PM.

    11. Member GLI Dan's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 03:04 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus711 View Post
      I left BMW after being a tech for nearly a decade and a half. From my experience, the first generation of any new model always had teething issues (as is typical with nearly every manufacturer), yet the customers for BMW always seem more vocal about said issues. The drivetrains for most all of the models were overall pretty good, with smaller issues that were usually caught with regular service visits (leaking coolant from intercoolers, running issues from ignition coil or fuel injector failure, MAP/MAF sensors, etc). Due to the large number of modules located everywhere, most of the time a software update would help rectify problems. Sometimes a module would a fail, cause an issue that was obvious (aka adaptive headlamp) and would then force other modules to be updated with the same software level so as to communicate correctly.

      From what I saw:

      -Silly, easy issues from 0-30k miles (must set proper maintenance schedule and stick with it)
      -If its going to happen, most serious problems from 30k-75k
      -Difficult to predict issues from 75k+ on

      Every time I would read about someone posting their problems online, they usually fell in category #2 of my previous post. It was usually a known issue, had they left their vehicle at the dealer for long enough to fix the thing completely, but they would rather inflate whatever situation happened and get a non-professional diagnosis thru the webz.


      TLDR:
      -Drivetrains pretty good with rare occurrence of mechanical failures like bearings/belts/pulleys and more prevalent issues such as sensors, fluid leaks, and software adaptations
      -Body built supremely well. Water leaks rare, usually able to be repaired with simple gasket replacement. Rattles/noises can be common due to so many trim items/panels
      -Suspensions are great. Brake backing plates known to catch rocks and create rattles, but that is common on a couple manufacturers.
      -Electronics are OK at best. Most, if not all BMWs made after 2010 will have inevitably electronic/modules issues and it their severity is directly related to your luck.


      That being said, I will never own at BMW made after the E90 (current DD) because they pump so many electronics and subsystems into them. Also, BMW states "lifetime" as 100k miles... most components would be lucky to make that mark (bushings, seals, gaskets, sensors, clutches, coolers, etc)

      Thanks for the info, seems to be what I more or less expected coming from my prior E46 and E92. The portion I bolded at the bottom has always been a BMW measuring stick, but in my experience I think 75K is a more realistic expectation.

      When you say electronic/module issues, can you give any specific examples? Are we talking issues like the E90 cooling system which necessitated removing the entire dashboard for one silly faulty component? or are we talking DME failure out of no where? somewhere in between?

      Did you ever come across problems with the adaptive suspension?
      Quote Originally Posted by DzlDub View Post
      Cars are ****ing awesome, anyone who doesn't want a car is a communist.
      Disclaimer: Generally, I strongly dislike people.
      Current: 18' Infiniti Q50 Red Sport
      Prior Vehicles: 13' E92 335i M-Sport l 04' E46 330ci SMG l 04' MKIV GLI 1.8t 6spd

    12. Member phaedrus711's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 06:12 PM #111
      Module as in electronic module, not like "cooling module". Instrument clusters are difficult since they help multiple BUS-systems communicate, and their price is reflected accordingly ($1500+). Seat modules, A/C (IHKA) modules, DSC units, radio/amplifiers, fuel pump modules (EKPS), and sunroof/roof modules (FZD). Cheapest of any of those is probably $400 before labor.

      I'd say 30% of BMW repairs do require an excessive amount of parts removed to get to whatever youre after. Thats just a German engineering BS thing. When I worked at Porsche, it was the same deal if not worse. If youre clever, you can get around most repair instructions and save 30-40% time with some well-placed tools.

      Adaptive suspension = adaptive swaybars and adjustable shock dampening = swaybars can leak (75K+ miles), main pump can die (electromechanical/hydraulic with control module, so must be programmed after you replace/bleed hydraulics), shocks are OK but when fail are pricey... some hall sensors here and there on the control arms.


      Obviously take my words with a grain of salt... but... I've owned BMWs ranging from an E30, to E46, to an i3, to an X3, to an E90. I've worked on nearly every model BMW made from late 70s to 2018ish. Factory trained with every certification (one of 3 high voltage guys at the dealer that I worked at). That being said, I will keep my E90 glued together as long as possible and then switch to something else when I've had enough.

    13. Member phaedrus711's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 06:15 PM #112
      Also, I found somewhere directly from BMW that they do state "lifetime" is 100k miles. As in verbatim from service bulletin somewhere.

    14. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 06:18 PM #113
      How many cars have failing modules, you mention seat modules, instrument clusters. How often are these things failing? Seems pretty rare. As a tech you're surrounded with nothing but problem cars cause that's your job, but think about the the thousands that are problem free. Wondering if you have a bit of a biased view on the entire situation.

    15. Member kiznarsh's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 06:59 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      How many cars have failing modules, you mention seat modules, instrument clusters. How often are these things failing? Seems pretty rare. As a tech you're surrounded with nothing but problem cars cause that's your job, but think about the the thousands that are problem free. Wondering if you have a bit of a biased view on the entire situation.
      Seems like the most accurate assessment a tech can provide is which problems are the most common. If 100 F80s come in for a given year, and 90 of them suffer from the same specific module failure, then you can deduce there's an issue. And the likelihood is then dependent on how many F80 cars are out there.

      But again, each dealer only sees local cars.

    16. 12-21-2019 01:07 AM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus711 View Post
      ...because they pump so many electronics and subsystems into them.
      It's always amazing to me how people will say this and then option their car to the hilt with all kinds of electronics that are probably more likely to give them issues than some of the chassis and other electronics that aren't dependent on options selected. For the F80, just look at the threads re purchasing - you commonly see people say cars without the Executive Package, etc. won't be (if purchased new) or aren't (if being purchased used) desirable and you should wait to find one with pretty much all the options. Very, very few people are interested in near strippers and dealers are well aware and stock inventory accordingly. I think this is partly driven by leasing - why not option the car up if you only have to pay for 40% of the cost of the options? (For the record, I don't agree with this line of thinking, but it comes up frequently.)

    17. Member phaedrus711's Avatar
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      12-21-2019 10:38 AM #116
      While I agree with that point, even if you were to get a "stripper" optioned car, that really only reduces the total amount of modules by 20% or so. I cant remember exactly every module on the F80, but I'd venture a guess in the mid 30s or 40s. Fully optioned might be mid 50s.

      And while the obvious statement is there (less options = less potential for those subsystems to fail)... my previous posts were regarding non-option modules (footwell modules, roof function center, light control, headlamp controls, DSC unit, radio, instrument cluster, etc).

      And yes, I only saw the problem cars so I would be biased in my viewpoint of total production cars. One interesting fact: of the 30+ techs that worked at the dealer, only 2 or 3 owned/drove BMWs. And you could easily afford a nicely optioned model if you worked hard (everyone was worked to the bone by management all day, every day).

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      12-21-2019 10:45 AM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      How many cars have failing modules, you mention seat modules, instrument clusters. How often are these things failing? Seems pretty rare.
      FWIW, my E92 had two modules fail: TPMS, and Junction Box. Neither were bad to replace, but I was blown away that multiple things like that could fail with the ~55k or so that the car had on it. And then our E88 had a failure with the comfort access somewhere in the door, but warranty picked that up so I don't know how bad a job it was.

      The F22 has been perfect, but that car is an '18 so I would hope so.

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      12-21-2019 10:49 AM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus711 View Post
      One interesting fact: of the 30+ techs that worked at the dealer, only 2 or 3 owned/drove BMWs. And you could easily afford a nicely optioned model if you worked hard (everyone was worked to the bone by management all day, every day).
      That is kind of an interesting fact. On the one hand, it's really tough to do something for work and also as a hobby, so I'm not surprised.

      But on the other hand, when I had my GTI, plenty of tech's there were driving modded Jettas and such and wearing VW hats and t-shirts around. And in the Porsche garage, the techs have super clean 944s and such, so maybe there's something to that.

    20. Member fknlo's Avatar
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      12-21-2019 11:11 AM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus711 View Post
      One interesting fact: of the 30+ techs that worked at the dealer, only 2 or 3 owned/drove BMWs. And you could easily afford a nicely optioned model if you worked hard (everyone was worked to the bone by management all day, every day).
      Well at the BMW dealer I go to all the employees own 7 BMW's each so my anecdotal evidence beats your anecdotal evidence.

      Go read the F80 section of Bimmerpost. You'll find all the weird **** that goes wrong on there. One of the goals when they were making this car was to rehab the image of M cars having **** reliability. I didn't even hesitate to buy mine at the end of warranty. I can also afford to fix any of the weird **** that does happen to break.

    21. Member phaedrus711's Avatar
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      12-21-2019 12:07 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by fknlo View Post
      Well at the BMW dealer I go to all the employees own 7 BMW's each so my anecdotal evidence beats your anecdotal evidence.

      Go read the F80 section of Bimmerpost. You'll find all the weird **** that goes wrong on there. One of the goals when they were making this car was to rehab the image of M cars having **** reliability. I didn't even hesitate to buy mine at the end of warranty. I can also afford to fix any of the weird **** that does happen to break.
      Category #3.


      I avoid BMW forums specifically because its like trying to put out a raging fire with a squirt gun. Too many "WELL MY CAR DID THIS SO WHY IS THIS ONE LIKE THAT!!" posts/users that it simply isnt worth the effort.


      I briefly worked at Porsche as a tech and certainly agree the clientele is totally different. Much more enthusiast-driven and reasonable people. BMW's image has changed a lot in the past decade with the innumerable models as well as the plethora of owners buying them used to get that "luxury feel". Most of those are some of the worst people, simply because they are maxed out on their budget for the vehicle itself and have nothing left to maintain. Just because the $55k vehicle depreciated to $30k, doesnt mean the repairs have done the same.

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      12-21-2019 12:14 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by spooled View Post
      It's always amazing to me how people will say this and then option their car to the hilt with all kinds of electronics that are probably more likely to give them issues than some of the chassis and other electronics that aren't dependent on options selected.
      The thing is, people who don't want the potential headaches associated with more stuff aren't generally the same people buying fully loaded cars. On the e9x m forums there is a pretty well defined group of people who don't understand having a luxury car without all the luxuries and there are people like me who don't care for the luxury options on their cars.


      Quote Originally Posted by fknlo View Post
      Go read the F80 section of Bimmerpost. You'll find all the weird **** that goes wrong on there. One of the goals when they were making this car was to rehab the image of M cars having **** reliability. I didn't even hesitate to buy mine at the end of warranty. I can also afford to fix any of the weird **** that does happen to break.
      Eh, I mean there are certainly problem areas with all cars. I've had my car for 3 years without a warranty and only had one small problem with a pinion seal. I don't hear about many owners with older m3s who have lots of problems. Sure, they exist, but they're by far the minority.

      Your second point is a good one. If you buy an expensive car, you should be prepared for expensive repairs. It's funny that people who spend 70k-ish on a car expect it to have a same running costs a camry. It's just not how it works. So yeah, if I own my car long enough to want to replace the rod bearings, then it will get done. The money won't be a huge issue.

      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

    23. 12-21-2019 02:11 PM #122
      One of the big takeaways that people are missing is what phaedrus said:

      The F80s are so packed full of electronics that you're going to see some big problems down the road. The cars are far too new to see those sorts of failures and if they do, then it just means that they are big POS.

      I don't really see how you can avoid this issue as cars get more electronics seemingly every generation. But the manufacturer's parts specification makes a big difference in quality. Just look at Mercedes W211 '03-06 vs. '07-09. The facelift cars are much more reliable as they changed the component specification to improve quality. You see the same thing today in the big difference in reliability rankings between VW and Audi- they really started to diverge around 2004.

    24. 12-21-2019 03:34 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by phaedrus711 View Post
      While I agree with that point, even if you were to get a "stripper" optioned car, that really only reduces the total amount of modules by 20% or so. I cant remember exactly every module on the F80, but I'd venture a guess in the mid 30s or 40s. Fully optioned might be mid 50s.

      And while the obvious statement is there (less options = less potential for those subsystems to fail)... my previous posts were regarding non-option modules (footwell modules, roof function center, light control, headlamp controls, DSC unit, radio, instrument cluster, etc).
      Interesting. I guess it's probably too early to tell for the F8X gen - there are plenty of cars out there with 50K+ miles but not many with 100K+ miles yet. BMW still hasn't figured out coolant overflow tanks, so entirely possible they haven't figured out how to make/spec reliable modules yet either. Regardless, appreciate the input

      Separately, for FWIW, most of the service advisors at my local dealership are in Ms of one gen or another. No idea what the techs drive though and I agree that their choices carry more weight.

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      12-21-2019 05:26 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by spooled View Post
      Interesting. I guess it's probably too early to tell for the F8X gen - there are plenty of cars out there with 50K+ miles but not many with 100K+ miles yet. BMW still hasn't figured out coolant overflow tanks, so entirely possible they haven't figured out how to make/spec reliable modules yet either. Regardless, appreciate the input

      Separately, for FWIW, most of the service advisors at my local dealership are in Ms of one gen or another. No idea what the techs drive though and I agree that their choices carry more weight.


      Advisors/sales guys are closest to lease deals. Rarely do they mention such deals to anyone else.

    26. Member fknlo's Avatar
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      12-21-2019 07:54 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by t44tq View Post

      The F80s are so packed full of electronics that you're going to see some big problems down the road. The cars are far too new to see those sorts of failures and if they do, then it just means that they are big POS.
      Almost every vehicle you can buy today is packed full of electronics. The oldest F80's are 5 years old now with the oldest F chassis 3 series having a few years on that.

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