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    Thread: Tail happy Passat wagon moost test

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      12-15-2019 11:38 PM #1


      The Arteon doesn't fare any better

      Last edited by BsickPassat; 12-15-2019 at 11:40 PM.
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      12-16-2019 01:15 AM #2
      Looks a bit like lift off oversteer to me, though I’m surprised to see it with such low throttle input.

      Maybe an arteon would be a good fwd gymkhana car

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      12-16-2019 02:19 AM #3
      It's a moost point.
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      12-16-2019 05:47 AM #4
      ...so this is a good thing? seems like both cars did just fine. oversteer is much easier to correct than understeer, especially in a front-wheel drive car. hats off to Volkswagen to making their cars rotate again.
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    6. 12-16-2019 09:01 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      ...so this is a good thing? seems like both cars did just fine. oversteer is much easier to correct than understeer, especially in a front-wheel drive car. hats off to Volkswagen to making their cars rotate again.
      You might want to consult with Ralph Nader about that opinion. With a normal (unskilled) driver, understeer keeps the front out front, basically no corrective action is required, the car just doesn't turn as much as the driver requests. The driver's normal reaction is to lift off the accelerator, which reduces understeer and that helps the car turn. Same driver same corrective action (nothing and/or lift off the accelerator) with the rear sliding results in a spin, and that almost invariably results in hitting things.

      Normal ordinary cars designed to be driven by everyone are designed to understeer. But ... unless it is calibrated to understeer like a pig, oversteer can still be induced by certain driver actions under the right conditions. Evidently the moose test is what those conditions are for these cars.

      ESP has allowed suspension calibrations that would have been trouble in the old days, and many ESP calibrations nowadays will let the car get a little bit loose before intervening. That's probably what is happening here. The car never actually spun, it never actually left the road, in one of the slo-mo shots you could see front wheels momentarily starting to lock due to ESP intervention. Not a big deal.

    7. Member Baltimoron's Avatar
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      12-16-2019 09:37 AM #6
      Who wants to start a post to list out the most dangerously oversteering cars known to TCL?

      1. Gen 2 Prius
      2. Passat wagon
      3. Arteon

    8. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-16-2019 09:54 AM #7
      I drive an Arteon, and I'm surprised to see it handle like that. Mine is much more planted in emergency situations (been in a few). Maybe that one doesn't have xds since it's only standard in the us?

    9. 12-16-2019 10:08 AM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      ...so this is a good thing? seems like both cars did just fine. oversteer is much easier to correct than understeer, especially in a front-wheel drive car. hats off to Volkswagen to making their cars rotate again.
      Looks like it allowed a lot more slip than my mk6 gti does with esp "off"

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      12-16-2019 10:22 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
      Who wants to start a post to list out the most dangerously oversteering cars known to TCL?

      1. Gen 2 Prius
      2. Passat wagon
      3. Arteon


      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life
      I drive an Arteon, and I'm surprised to see it handle like that. Mine is much more planted in emergency situations (been in a few). Maybe that one doesn't have xds since it's only standard in the us?
      Oh, the US exclusive XDS is interesting. If (and it’s a big if) XDS works under decelerations I could see where it may help slightly; just as a RWD car with a spool limits movement at the front. That said, if this is indeed market specific I would be looking more at the suspension.

    11. Member Colty_CM's Avatar
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      12-16-2019 10:22 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      I drive an Arteon, and I'm surprised to see it handle like that. Mine is much more planted in emergency situations (been in a few). Maybe that one doesn't have xds since it's only standard in the us?
      Can you get the Arteon SEL without 4motion? It looked like the test was with a FWD Arteon, can't tell by your profile if yours is FWD or AWD.
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    12. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-16-2019 10:38 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Colty_CM View Post
      Can you get the Arteon SEL without 4motion? It looked like the test was with a FWD Arteon, can't tell by your profile if yours is FWD or AWD.
      I have an SEL-P which only comes in 4mo. SE and SEL come in FWD or 4mo.

      The test video stated it was a TDI 4mo. However, I have a really hard time believing that is normal behavior having been behind the wheel of one for 6 months. Like I said the only other factor would be XDS which absolutely effects stability. It is standard in the US and optional overseas.

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      12-16-2019 11:00 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      I have an SEL-P which only comes in 4mo. SE and SEL come in FWD or 4mo.

      The test video stated it was a TDI 4mo. However, I have a really hard time believing that is normal behavior having been behind the wheel of one for 6 months. Like I said the only other factor would be XDS which absolutely effects stability. It is standard in the US and optional overseas.
      Okay, makes sense, I watched the Passat video last night, skipped the Arteon video and now I'm at work so can't watch it now.

      Maybe the difference is due to the heavier diesel engine?
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    14. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-16-2019 12:00 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Colty_CM View Post
      Okay, makes sense, I watched the Passat video last night, skipped the Arteon video and now I'm at work so can't watch it now.

      Maybe the difference is due to the heavier diesel engine?
      Yeah something is def off imo compared to my experience.

    15. 12-16-2019 12:09 PM #14
      How do these cars compare to equivalent models?? I dont do moose avoidance on a regular basis down here, so it hard to evaluate these test.

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      12-16-2019 12:18 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      You might want to consult with Ralph Nader about that opinion. With a normal (unskilled) driver, understeer keeps the front out front, basically no corrective action is required, the car just doesn't turn as much as the driver requests. The driver's normal reaction is to lift off the accelerator, which reduces understeer and that helps the car turn. Same driver same corrective action (nothing and/or lift off the accelerator) with the rear sliding results in a spin, and that almost invariably results in hitting things.

      Normal ordinary cars designed to be driven by everyone are designed to understeer. But ... unless it is calibrated to understeer like a pig, oversteer can still be induced by certain driver actions under the right conditions. Evidently the moose test is what those conditions are for these cars.

      ESP has allowed suspension calibrations that would have been trouble in the old days, and many ESP calibrations nowadays will let the car get a little bit loose before intervening. That's probably what is happening here. The car never actually spun, it never actually left the road, in one of the slo-mo shots you could see front wheels momentarily starting to lock due to ESP intervention. Not a big deal.
      understeer is only safer because cars are designed to hit things with there front, not that driver reactions are better too it.

      the typical reaction to understeer is more wheel, turning in more, which only makes it worse. if there is braking invovled, they also push harder on the brakes, which again, makes the whole problem worse. training that out of people is hard to do.

      oversteer the counter steering comes naturally, it the throttle input that will screw you here. but the real reason we see cars tuned for understeer is that the front of the car is way safer to crash, rather than the sides or rear.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    17. 12-16-2019 02:53 PM #16
      The problem with requiring a driver to actively steer out of an oversteer situation is that most drivers won't give the correct amount of opposite correction and do it quickly enough - and 99+% of cars, especially nowadays, don't transmit enough feel through the steering to give the driver a hope of feeling the correct amount. And lots of drivers will simply panic and do nothing.

      Sure, if you have something with quick, direct steering and good steering geometry, you can feel it (and not all drivers will know what to do with that road feel even if they are provided with it). Otherwise ...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGuUVasqlAk

    18. Member WalterGuida's Avatar
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      12-16-2019 02:59 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Like I said the only other factor would be XDS which absolutely effects stability.
      XDS only kicks on after 25MPH or faster I believe. You'd feel it more on sharper turns aft speed than driving slower in a parking lot and maneuvering.

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      12-16-2019 05:09 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      The problem with requiring a driver to actively steer out of an oversteer situation is that most drivers won't give the correct amount of opposite correction and do it quickly enough - and 99+% of cars, especially nowadays, don't transmit enough feel through the steering to give the driver a hope of feeling the correct amount. And lots of drivers will simply panic and do nothing.

      Sure, if you have something with quick, direct steering and good steering geometry, you can feel it (and not all drivers will know what to do with that road feel even if they are provided with it). Otherwise ...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGuUVasqlAk
      thats probably not a hands problem, but a foot one. ie, lifting.

      its actually kind of amazing to watch in-car of drivers. the hands are rarely the issue in oversteer. because it makes intuitive sense, as the car starts to over-rotate, the brain is just like ... ummm, i dont want to be pointing this way, i want to be over there, and the hands just naturally do it. now, sometimes the hands lag when the car catches itself, but most of the time that issue is actually a foot one ... lifting.

      if you think of the intuitive reaction to understeer, which is "ummmm car isn't turning, i want to be over there, there, now ive added more steering to get over there" you can see where its a problem. how many students cars have you been in watching them continuously adding steering while the car understeers off the track? lots is my answer. training someone to freeze or reduce steering input in understeer is a tough one. its very counter intuitive.

      but we digress, the main reason for setting up a street car with understeer bias is so that all that nice crash structure and safety features hits first, like its designed to. not because untrained drivers are better at dealing with it.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

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      12-16-2019 05:14 PM #19
      Finally got to watch the video.... I think the driver reacted slowly in the Arteon test. In the final "turn" he seemed slow to turn the wheel. But maybe that's just a viewer expecting too much.
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    21. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      12-16-2019 05:33 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by WalterGuida View Post
      XDS only kicks on after 25MPH or faster I believe. You'd feel it more on sharper turns aft speed than driving slower in a parking lot and maneuvering.
      In the video they are going between 74 and 76 kmph, (44-47mph) so I'm not sure I understand the point? I'm saying that if the car in the video did have XDS like in the US (since it is optional overseas, and I don't think it had it), then it might have handled better in this moose test.

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      12-16-2019 10:13 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
      Who wants to start a post to list out the most dangerously oversteering cars known to TCL?

      1. Gen 2 Prius
      2. Passat wagon
      3. Arteon
      4. Cayman
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    23. 12-16-2019 10:42 PM #22
      None of this looks dangerous to me. Crazy inputs result in (somewhat) crazy response from the car. Would you prefer it to ignore the driver instead?

      And I'm not some kind of extreme libertarian who would recommend to just leave a one-star review on yelp if a product is poorly designed and kills you and your whole family ... Like I don't think cars should threaten to flip over when you punch the brakes (e.g.)

    24. 12-16-2019 10:42 PM #23
      Moose, Moost, Moist, A Moist Moose Is A Moost

      I heard they both failed the "moist test" too. Didn't make anybody hot.

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      12-16-2019 10:43 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Baltimoron View Post
      Who wants to start a post to list out the most dangerously oversteering cars known to TCL?

      1. Gen 2 Prius
      2. Passat wagon
      3. Arteon
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      12-16-2019 11:23 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by InfraRedline View Post
      None of this looks dangerous to me. Crazy inputs result in (somewhat) crazy response from the car. Would you prefer it to ignore the driver instead?
      Yeah, there's a lot of weight transfer all over the place; the car took out a few cones but it didn't end up pointed backwards or anything.

      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman

      4. Cayman
      OMG that was a while ago!


      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life
      Yeah something is def off imo compared to my experience.
      Could easily be; any number of subtle differences could explain a difference. This test transfers forward on decel and then loads up the right side of the car hard, with a complete/sudden transfer from full right to full left just after. It's a rather specific test and could be as simple as the euro version having a stiffer rear end. Which maybe they do; these cars have a tow rating in Europe.

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