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    Thread: LOL WATT! $61 for a 35% charge on a Kona EV at Electrify America

    1. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 02:08 PM #1
      If this is the true cost of using the Electrify America system, non-Tesla EVs will never reach mainstream users except for commuters who can home charge.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/electricveh...ica_is_a_scam/

      When I bought my first electric car back in 2017 I enjoyed low charging costs at home, great acceleration and long range capability, I still enjoy all of these things but upon purchase of my Hyundai Kona EV and a couple long range trips I feel that I have to speak up about the elephant in the room. EV fast charging stations are NOT cheap... At all. I charged my Kona EV at an electrify America charger yesterday and was billed over $47 for a charge that started at 50%. Just to put that into perspective that is approximately 0.47 cents a mile, which is confusing at best. My old Jeep Wrangler was less per mile then that.

      The breakdown after I finally got the one station of the 4 stalls I used to work is as follows:

      Session fee: $1 Charging: $47.04 Idling: $12.80

      Total energy delivered: 25.32 kWh. Charging cost: 0.69 cents a minute. Max power: 150kW.



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    3. Senior Member dunhamjr's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 02:11 PM #2
      what the heck did this person do wrong?

      my experience pool is small but all the examples i have seen were like $5 for a similar amount of charge.

      maybe its explainable by the type of charger, starting at 58% and going to 93% instead of 80-ish where many have mentioned charging speeds slow down. and idle time? not a good idea to sit in the spot doing nothing.

    4. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 02:13 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      If this is the true cost of using the Electrify America system, non-Tesla EVs will never reach mainstream users except for commuters who can home charge.

      VW has to make their money back after Diesel Gate


      Sounds right though..

      Drivers will still pay $1 to initiate a charging session and up to 40 cents per minute for parking after their charge is complete.

      The company plans to reduce its standard per-minute rates as well, from 30 to 35 cents per minute (depending on the location) to 24 to 28 cents per minute, the company announced at an event at its headquarters in Virginia last week.

    5. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 02:24 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      VW has to make their money back after Diesel Gate


      Sounds right though..
      If Tesla charged this much for charging they would have been in the black years ago!

      (or gone under as no one would buy their cars)

    6. Senior Member dunhamjr's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 02:33 PM #5
      poking around a bit... EA is likely the most expensive charging option they could have used.

      one of the local public level2 plugs near my house is $0.39-0.49 per kwh, not per minute.

    7. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 02:53 PM #6
      Why the idling charge if he didn't hit 100%? And is there a grace period or is it charge cost charge cost charge cost BAM idle cost idle cost idle cost?
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    8. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 02:59 PM #7
      LOL, costs me a little over $70 to fill up the Jeep with premium. Hopefully there are cheaper alternatives out there, but I have read stories of places like car dealers charging fairly high rates to use their chargers.

    9. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:04 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Why the idling charge if he didn't hit 100%? And is there a grace period or is it charge cost charge cost charge cost BAM idle cost idle cost idle cost?
      Good question, wonder if you can set what you want to max charge it too? But it is interesting it didnt go to 100 then idle, it stopped at 93 and started idling

    10. Member G0to60's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:12 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Why the idling charge if he didn't hit 100%? And is there a grace period or is it charge cost charge cost charge cost BAM idle cost idle cost idle cost?
      I bet the Kona has a setting to stop at 80%. Once that is hit the charging will stop but since it's plugged in the idle charging starts to apply. I'm not sure how long you have though between charging and idle.

      Looks like he could have saved $12 by unplugging when it was done. Still a little spendy but not as terrible as it looks.

      I also think this isn't that big of a deal. You're only going to be using the DC chargers while on a road trip so the higher cost of those will be diminished since most of the time people can just charge at home.

    11. Member Egz's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:15 PM #10
      Wow, going from 58% to 93% is like adding 90 miles (based on a max of 258). The reported MPGe is 132 in the city, so that would be equivalent to using 0.68 gallons of gas. They are essentially charging $78 per gallon!
      If I used a more traditional fuel economy of something like 40MPG, it would be like burning 2.25 gallons, for an equilivant price of $20 a gallon.

      Ouch!

    12. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:17 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by G0to60 View Post
      I also think this isn't that big of a deal. You're only going to be using the DC chargers while on a road trip so the higher cost of those will be diminished since most of the time people can just charge at home.
      100% disagree.

      Remember when gas got really expensive back in like 2005 and we have Congressional inquiries and such over "gouging at the pump" and all that? This is crazy gouging, and if it isn't stopped, it will absolutely kill the market for EVs. People will pay for convenience, but if a "full tank" at home costs $2, they're going to expect to pay, I dunno, $5 on the road. Not $50.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    13. 12-19-2019 03:22 PM #12
      EA pricing is dumb... it bases it off the max charging rate that the car allows. So the Kona being 76kw, gets pushed into the 125kw (?) tier even if it is just above the 75kw tier and even if the 75k isn't reached. Then combine that with being on the bad end of the charging curve and you pretty much have the worst case of DC fast charging.

    14. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:32 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by silverlegacy View Post
      EA pricing is dumb... it bases it off the max charging rate that the car allows. So the Kona being 76kw, gets pushed into the 125kw (?) tier even if it is just above the 75kw tier and even if the 75k isn't reached. Then combine that with being on the bad end of the charging curve and you pretty much have the worst case of DC fast charging.
      EV owners seem to be a lot smarter and more vocal than average members of the public. If Volkswagen's electric company plays enough stupid games like this, nobody will use their chargers in the first place and the problem will correct itself one way or another.

    15. Senior Member Wimbledon's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:38 PM #14
      EA recently opened several stations in Arizona but did not include any AC J1772 plugs, while elsewhere EA often included at least one J1772. I was disappointed by that — my non-DC-fast-charging EV can’t even stop by one of the new stations for a charge.
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    16. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:39 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      EV owners seem to be a lot smarter and more vocal than average members of the public. If Volkswagen's electric company plays enough stupid games like this, nobody will use their chargers in the first place and the problem will correct itself one way or another.
      Hopefully, except given the relative scarcity of chargers coupled with the number of chargers that are DOA when people get to them, it might not be that simple, it's not (yet) like eschewing BP for the Shell across the street.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    17. Member compy222's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:41 PM #16
      a big issue is regulatory, utilities (typically state regulated monopolies) can charge demand rates even if the chargers aren't being used. basically, they charge these stations out the wazoo to have up to 150kW of juice to be dispensed at the ready...think of this like a base service charge. This makes the cost of high speed charging very high in many places.
      Quote Originally Posted by capsaicin View Post
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    18. Member masa8888's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 03:42 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Why the idling charge if he didn't hit 100%? And is there a grace period or is it charge cost charge cost charge cost BAM idle cost idle cost idle cost?
      Looks like there's a 10 minute grace period.

      https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing

      Don’t forget to move your car after it’s finished charging. A $0.40 per-minute idle fee is added to your total session bill if your vehicle is not moved within the 10-minute grace period after your charging session is complete. We do this to ensure more people have a chance to charge. The app and the charger screen will let you know when the idle fee is going into effect, so you can unplug your car in time.

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      12-19-2019 04:02 PM #18
      Okay let's just get a few things straight.

      1. The car was likely fully charged when the charging station indicated 93%. 93% SOC on the Kona will likely indicate a ''full'' charge on the dashboard, the car doesn't let it go above that to protect the battery. It's like my Prius Prime, when the dashboard indicates 100% battery, it's actually around 83% SOC, and when it indicates 0%, it's actually around 17-18% SOC. EV's often display a ''dumbed down'' version of SOC because it never fully charges or discharges, whereas the actual charger or OBD apps will report the real SOC. It likely stopped at 93% because the battery was as full as Hyundai allows it, and the station started charging an idling fee.

      2. Price at this fast charge station is 0.69$ per minute. It doesn't take a genius to figure out, that if you leave your car plugged in for over an HOUR, it's going to cost quite a bit of money.

      3. After 80% charge, the charge rate tapers significantly, at the very end it's likely charging at L2 speeds or even lower. Plugging in at 58% and leaving your car there for an hour is a ROOKIE mistake.

      4. He should have just left his car plugged in for about 10 minutes, he would have quickly been up to 80% and been on his way for around 6-7$.

      I'm not quite sure if that guy is trolling, or maybe he just plugged his car in without any knowledge about how anything EV related works. If that's the case, we still have a long way to go before EV's become mainstream.
      Last edited by Dubveiser; 12-19-2019 at 04:07 PM.

    20. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 04:08 PM #19
      Infrastructure is all too important. We need more EV infrastructure, and also simplified pricing, otherwise it's too complicated for those transitioning from ICE where the cost of filling up is easily determined and relatively consistent over a short period where gas prices are relatively steady.

      I'm fortunate to have the option to charge at home if I were to get an EV, but many don't. All stories like this do are create even more fear of EV range and charging difficulties for those that don't look at the details or the minutiae of charge rates and such.

    21. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 04:19 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      Okay let's just get a few things straight.

      1. The car was likely fully charged when the charging station indicated 93%. 93% SOC on the Kona will likely indicate a ''full'' charge on the dashboard, the car doesn't let it go above that to protect the battery. It's like my Prius Prime, when the dashboard indicates 100% battery, it's actually around 83% SOC, and when it indicates 0%, it's actually around 17-18% SOC. EV's often display a ''dumbed down'' version of SOC because it never fully charges or discharges, whereas the actual charger or OBD apps will report the real SOC. It likely stopped at 93% because the battery was as full as Hyundai allows it, and the station started charging an idling fee.

      2. Price at this fast charge station is 0.69$ per minute. It doesn't take a genius to figure out, that if you leave your car plugged in for over an HOUR, it's going to cost quite a bit of money.

      3. After 80% charge, the charge rate tapers significantly, at the very end it's likely charging at L2 speeds or even lower. Plugging in at 58% and leaving your car there for an hour is a ROOKIE mistake.

      4. He should have just left his car plugged in for about 10 minutes, he would have quickly been up to 80% and been on his way for around 6-7$.

      I'm not quite sure if that guy is trolling, or maybe he just plugged his car in without any knowledge about how anything EV related works. If that's the case, we still have a long way to go before EV's become mainstream.
      That's true, but EV charging needs to be idiot proof before it can catch on. The math is super simple for gasoline: Get 1 gallon, pay $X.XX. You don't pay more because you filled from a half tank or walked inside the convenience store to by a soda after you were done charging. EVs have to be a better experience for the money if you want to "Electrify America."

    22. Member someguy123's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 04:32 PM #21
      I wonder if the idling rate and $/minute are compounded?

      Anyways, another EV owner being ignorant.

    23. Senior Member dunhamjr's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 04:43 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      That's true, but EV charging needs to be idiot proof before it can catch on. The math is super simple for gasoline: Get 1 gallon, pay $X.XX. You don't pay more because you filled from a half tank or walked inside the convenience store to by a soda after you were done charging. EVs have to be a better experience for the money if you want to "Electrify America."
      while i do agree... this person was charging slowly at a fast charger for most of their nearly 70 minute session, then left the car sitting at the charger for another 42 minutes (10 minute grace, plus)

      additionally, some of the other charging options DO seem to make it a much easier computation versus the 'per minute' route that EA went.

      the local blink charger is $0.39-0.49 per kwh (member vs guest).
      so if you have to a potential charge 30kwh in total, that should be $14.70 max.

      IMO that's similar enough to fueling a gasser that people shouldnt be scared away.
      Last edited by dunhamjr; 12-19-2019 at 05:10 PM.

    24. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 04:46 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by Egz View Post
      Wow, going from 58% to 93% is like adding 90 miles (based on a max of 258). The reported MPGe is 132 in the city, so that would be equivalent to using 0.68 gallons of gas. They are essentially charging $78 per gallon!
      If I used a more traditional fuel economy of something like 40MPG, it would be like burning 2.25 gallons, for an equilivant price of $20 a gallon.

      Ouch!
      That is what I was wondering about but didn't want to research enough to do the math. I just paid $40 for about 17.5 gallon of gas that will take my pickup truck about 330 miles. He is paying an additional $7 ($47 not counting the idle fee) to go just 90 miles. That is just crazy.

    25. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 04:47 PM #24
      How long until the likes of New Jersey and Oregon pass a law preventing the public from plugging in the charger themselves?

    26. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      12-19-2019 05:04 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      How long until the likes of New Jersey and Oregon pass a law preventing the public from plugging in the charger themselves?
      IL has a rule like that for unions at McCormack Place (trade show hall) and the like, I wouldn't be.....huhuh...shocked.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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