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    Thread: LOL WATT! $61 for a 35% charge on a Kona EV at Electrify America

    1. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 12:20 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      Yea I feel like you need a math degree to figure out some of the numbers sometimes.
      Electrical engineering degree. Masters at a minimum. Maybe a PhD.

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    3. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 12:53 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by dhdd View Post
      I think his point is that we've had alot of time to optimize the current process and operations. It's still the wild west on the EV front.

      But even them, there are people who put the wrong type of gas into their vehicles, even though it is easy now.
      Understand, but the flip side is, the gas system had to evolve organically and people had to figure out what worked and what didn't.

      Now we know what works and what doesn't, so adapting those lessons learned to EV should be reasonably easy, all the hard work has already been done.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    4. Member Meroving1an's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 01:40 PM #53
      In the abstract: it cannot be this expense to charge up if EV has any hope of proliferation.

    5. Member jrsmitchell's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 03:13 PM #54
      A few auto journalists just did an NY to LA "Cannonball" in an Audi E-Tron using Electrify Amerca's infrastructure:



      When they mentioned that it charges at 150 kwh I immediately thought of this thread wondering how much they spent on charging. Strangely the associated articles (one, two) don't mention any charging costs, but Glucker said in the comments that they spent $507 over ~3,101 miles. So they did much better than this poor guy somehow.

    6. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 03:22 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by jrsmitchell View Post
      A few auto journalists just did an NY to LA "Cannonball" in an Audi E-Tron using Electrify Amerca's infrastructure:
      VIDEO

      When they mentioned that it charges at 150 kwh I immediately thought of this thread wondering how much they spent on charging. Strangely the associated articles (one, two) don't mention any charging costs, but Glucker said in the comments that they spent $507 over ~3,101 miles. So they did much better than this poor guy somehow.
      If you drove a car that got 20 mpg those same 3100 miles and paid $3/gallon for gas, you would spend $465. Just for comparison sake.

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      12-20-2019 03:45 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      Yea I feel like you need a math degree to figure out some of the numbers sometimes.
      If you can calculate miles per gallon and cost of fuel per mile, you can figure out kwh, wh/mile and charge rates. It's really not complicated.

      You just have to, you know, take some time to learn something new.

    8. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      12-20-2019 03:46 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      If you drove a car that got 20 mpg those same 3100 miles and paid $3/gallon for gas, you would spend $465. Just for comparison sake.
      Yeah, an e-Tron is less thrifty overall than, say, a Model 3, but $0.16/mi is still a lot when gas-only cars can do it for less.

      If ABetterRoutePlanner is accurate (and I hear it is), Supercharging a Model 3 is more like $0.05/mi.

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      12-20-2019 04:02 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      If you can calculate miles per gallon and cost of fuel per mile, you can figure out kwh, wh/mile and charge rates. It's really not complicated.

      You just have to, you know, take some time to learn something new.
      We have taken the time to learn something new. We've learned that the promise of lower operating costs of EVs isn't exactly true, and that charging costs are much more opaque and volatile than gasoline. I'm guessing that wasn't the takeaway you were hoping for?

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      12-20-2019 04:04 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Yeah, an e-Tron is less thrifty overall than, say, a Model 3, but $0.16/mi is still a lot when gas-only cars can do it for less.

      If ABetterRoutePlanner is accurate (and I hear it is), Supercharging a Model 3 is more like $0.05/mi.
      No worries. Build a spreadsheet forecasting your trip types, mileage and future fuel/electric costs and determine the NPV of your future savings. Anyone can do that

    11. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 04:59 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post

      You just have to, you know, take some time to learn something new.
      OK Boomer

      Yells at cloud


      /s

    12. Member
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      12-20-2019 09:01 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      We have taken the time to learn something new. We've learned that the promise of lower operating costs of EVs isn't exactly true, and that charging costs are much more opaque and volatile than gasoline. I'm guessing that wasn't the takeaway you were hoping for?
      95% of the time most EV charge at home.

      My cost per mile running EV here is 1.4 cents per mile.

      My old car averaged 18mpg and with fuel at nearly 5$ per gallon, cost per mile was 27 cents. The EV costs is roughly 20 times cheaper to operate than my gasoline car.

      Also, brb, I'm going to take my ICE car to a gas station, fill the tank, then I'll totally ignore the clicks (what are those annoying clicks for anyway) and just keep pumping and pumping in fuel, until fuel starts spilling out of the funnel, all over the ground and it ends up costing me 120$ instead of 40$ to fill the 15 gallon tank.

      Then I'm going to write about how it cost me 120$ to fill a 15 gallon tank.

      That's pretty much what that guy did with his EV, minus the hazard of spilling a hazardous fuel everywhere.

    13. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 09:23 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      Are they labeled as such? I've admittedly never looked.
      There is a visible difference in plug shape.

      This is a Level 1 or Level 2 charger:


      And this is a J1772 CCS DC Charger, sometimes called Level 3 charger.


      The two big contacts down at the bottom are what carry the DC power (Thus, DC charger or DC Fast Charger).

      The smaller plug at the top is what should be in most parking lot type situations, for stores, restaurants, etc.

      Quote Originally Posted by RAVatar View Post
      Why does it need to be that complicated though?

      If an ICE vehicle is low on gas per the dashboard gauge (whether it's on/below E or just above E, the actual exact quantity of gasoline is irrelevant), you go to a station, you put the pump in, you fill up until it clicks, top off if you so choose, and then you're done.

      If a BEV vehicle is low on charge (again, whether it's at 0% or just above is irrelevant), you go to a charge station. You swipe your card, you plug in, it gives an ETA to full (not 93% or actual vs safety maximum or any of that BS), and you go dick around until full or you unplug at your desired percentage of charge, and you go about your way.
      It's complicated right now because people didn't think their way through it when they wrote the standards, and they wrote a lot of "may supply" or "may use" instead of "Shall Supply" and "Shall Use" with respect to what information gets passed between vehicle and charger.

      I work daily with some of the people who helped write the CCS standard, and they will make the same comment above: "we screwed up and left something open to interpretation, so of course some idiot interpreted it that way."

      FT Record: the intended architecture of a SAE CCS charging session is that the vehicle is in control of the session from beginning to end, with the charger responding to commanded output, updating its available limits, and displaying the vehicle's supplied data if any on an HMI (screen, display, etc).

      Thus the vehicle should only be supplying "display ready" data: the "dash display SoC" percentage, for instance, in the CCS message for battery statistics. But that "display ready" quantity was never explicitly defined in the standard, just that the vehicle SoC was a "may supply" value for that message, so some companies interpreted it as "use the system one."

      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Electrical engineering degree.
      Present! Still sometimes get it wrong, because there were a bunch of MEs and SEs on the standards committees

      [edit]
      Also EA's pricing structure sucks BUT there should be an effort made to have states' rules RE "reselling" energy altered to permit the charging of per-kWh rates for electric vehicle charging.
      A per-minute rate makes sense if you are attempting to limit the dwell time in a space and induce turnover, however.
      Last edited by turbinepowered; 12-20-2019 at 09:26 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

    14. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 09:51 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      A per-minute rate makes sense if you are attempting to limit the dwell time in a space and induce turnover, however.
      I guess a per-minute rate structure would also encourage the auto manufacturers to support the highest charge rate possible. Like if one car supports 50kw and another supports 100kw but both are charged 10 cents a minute, the cost per kwh to charge the 50kw car is twice as high as a car accepting 100kw. So in a sense, the automaker supporting 100kw charging can tell customers that their car will charge faster and cheaper than the competition. So that's cool...I guess? I'm all for faster charging, after all. Anyway, I've been an auto enthusiast of sorts since the 1980s and feel like each decade we've gotten something very cool out of it. I believe that the 20s are going to be the decade of the electric car options going from fairly good for the upper class to very good for the upper middle class and hopefully good for the general middle class (like $24k at today's dollar value) by the end of the 20s.

    15. Member Yuppie Scum's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 10:12 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      I guess a per-minute rate structure would also encourage the auto manufacturers to support the highest charge rate possible. Like if one car supports 50kw and another supports 100kw but both are charged 10 cents a minute, the cost per kwh to charge the 50kw car is twice as high as a car accepting 100kw. So in a sense, the automaker supporting 100kw charging can tell customers that their car will charge faster and cheaper than the competition. So that's cool...I guess? I'm all for faster charging, after all. Anyway, I've been an auto enthusiast of sorts since the 1980s and feel like each decade we've gotten something very cool out of it. I believe that the 20s are going to be the decade of the electric car options going from fairly good for the upper class to very good for the upper middle class and hopefully good for the general middle class (like $24k at today's dollar value) by the end of the 20s.
      The 2 middle class people left in 2030 will probably find some good used EV options.

    16. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 10:25 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      I guess a per-minute rate structure would also encourage the auto manufacturers to support the highest charge rate possible. Like if one car supports 50kw and another supports 100kw but both are charged 10 cents a minute, the cost per kwh to charge the 50kw car is twice as high as a car accepting 100kw. So in a sense, the automaker supporting 100kw charging can tell customers that their car will charge faster and cheaper than the competition. So that's cool...I guess? I'm all for faster charging, after all. Anyway, I've been an auto enthusiast of sorts since the 1980s and feel like each decade we've gotten something very cool out of it. I believe that the 20s are going to be the decade of the electric car options going from fairly good for the upper class to very good for the upper middle class and hopefully good for the general middle class (like $24k at today's dollar value) by the end of the 20s.
      A pricing plan like EA's though will put a damper on that plan in a hurry!
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

    17. Senior Member dunhamjr's Avatar
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      12-20-2019 11:11 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by Meroving1an View Post
      In the abstract: it cannot be this expense to charge up if EV has any hope of proliferation.
      Don't worry... It's not.

      Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk

    18. 12-21-2019 01:11 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by turbinepowered View Post
      I work daily with some of the people who helped write the CCS standard, and they will make the same comment above: "we screwed up and left something open to interpretation, so of course some idiot interpreted it that way."
      reminds me of the apocryphal story from long ago, about a software developer watching a newbie test his software in the lab. When the software said to "press any key", the operator pressed J. The dev stopped him and said, "why did you do that?" The operator said, "it said press any key...." The dev got angry: "No no, I meant the enter key!"

    19. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      12-21-2019 02:03 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      No worries. Build a spreadsheet forecasting your trip types, mileage and future fuel/electric costs and determine the NPV of your future savings. Anyone can do that
      Did you mean to quote the person above me?

      Right now existing CCS networks are somewhat complicated and even expensive. Tesla is deadnuts easy; no card swiping or complicated prompts, and your car even shows you Superchargers on your navigation route. The things it currently does better are part of what updates to the CCS standard will fix.

      ABRP is a cool tool that you or I could use to see what road tripping a Tesla would be like. It’s by no means necessary for owners to use or akin to making your own spreadsheet.

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      12-21-2019 09:20 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      I believe that the 20s are going to be the decade of the electric car....
      Bring on the whirring 20s!

    21. 12-21-2019 10:00 AM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      Bring on the whirring 20s!

    22. 12-21-2019 10:20 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      If you can calculate miles per gallon and cost of fuel per mile, you can figure out kwh, wh/mile and charge rates. It's really not complicated.

      You just have to, you know, take some time to learn something new.
      That's the point though, people don't want to and have no need to do something different. On my 18 mile commute I pass seven gas station, no calculations, adapters or time wasted.

      There's no candy coating the added hassles EV pose, the nerds might be into it the for the public at large it's a hard pass.

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      12-21-2019 11:29 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      That's the point though, people don't want to and have no need to do something different. On my 18 mile commute I pass seven gas station, no calculations, adapters or time wasted.

      There's no candy coating the added hassles EV pose, the nerds might be into it the for the public at large it's a hard pass.
      On your 18 mile commute you never need to stop again.. darn that hassle

    24. 12-21-2019 11:34 AM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      On your 18 mile commute you never need to stop again.. darn that hassle
      No calculating, no looking at apps, no long wait times, no adapters

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      12-21-2019 11:37 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      No calculating, no looking at apps, no long wait times, no adapters
      Exactly just plug in and home and never think about it again.

    26. 12-21-2019 11:51 AM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      Exactly just plug in and home and never think about it again.
      No, because I'm not going to pay for a home charger lol and no because gas is cheap and gas stations are fast and plentiful. There's just so many good gas choices in vehicles that EVs don't even make the list for the majority of Americans on that basis alone. The added price, poor resale, low demand models and hassle of EVs keeps them in the very low margins.

      EVs are a very small niche, enjoy it but for the rest of us, again, it's a hard pass.

      EVs are a hassle and an unnecessary one at that. From the Fisker's affordable all-electric SUV is called 'Ocean' thread. Nobosy is going to put up with this except EV nerds who are into them:

      "It seems I have had to try multiple apps lately, and I want something more standardized! Chargepoint was always easy to use, and now I have Greenlots as well, but what I don’t want is to have to have 4-5 different apps on my phone just so I can have multiple charging options when in the road away from home."

      https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ed-Ocean/page5

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