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    Thread: "Next-gen Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ on the way with more power" (??)

    1. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 10:31 AM #1
      Next-gen Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ on the way with more power
      New sports car could have 255bhp+ generated by a Subaru 'Boxer' engine and will be built on Toyota’s TNGA platform



      The next-gen sports car will feature some substantial changes from the existing model. While the original was built on a Subaru platform, the firm’s current architectures are not suited to rear-drive cars, so Autocar understands the new model is set to be built on Toyota’s TNGA platform.

      While Toyota underpinnings will be used, Subaru is expected to once again take the lead with powertrain development. Autocar understands the car is likely to retain a flat-four ‘Boxer’ engine, with reports in Japan suggesting that the existing 2.0-litre naturally aspirated unit will be switched for the turbocharged 2.4-litre powerplant currently used in the Ascent, Legacy and Outback models.

      That engine produces 255bhp in the Ascent, a figure that would represent a significant upgrade on the outgoing model’s output. Forced induction would also provide a substantial torque upgrade over the old car, too, providing a draw for those who weren’t satisfied with the performance of the outgoing GT86 and BRZ. Both brands may wish to retain the drivability and character of a naturally aspirated unit, but this needs to be balanced with what buyers are demanding – and that appears to be the on-tap grunt of a turbocharged unit.
      https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...way-more-power


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    3. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 10:34 AM #2
      It would be very disappointing if they went turbo-only on this. I also don't understand how they can go from a 2.0L N/A engine to a 2.4L turbo engine with what little space there is in that engine bay already.

      If they fix the NVH and keep an N/A engine, they can shut up and take my money.

      Like those renders too.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
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    4. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 10:36 AM #3
      Would using the TNGA platform give it the extra room for the bigger motor?

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      01-13-2020 10:39 AM #4
      The fix is so ****ing simple. Take the 2.4. Remove turbos. Make it rev to 8K and make power all the way up there. Make it a mild hybrid for emissions if necessary. They're gonna ruin it

    6. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 10:42 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Would using the TNGA platform give it the extra room for the bigger motor?
      I guess that's the fair speculation behind it.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    7. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 10:44 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      The fix is so ****ing simple. Take the 2.4. Remove turbos. Make it rev to 8K and make power all the way up there. Make it a mild hybrid for emissions if necessary. They're gonna ruin it
      That is the speculation that is going around right now. 2.4L without the turbo. I highly doubt it will rev to 8k, but as long as it makes decent torque, I don't really care.

      Wouldn't mind a mild hybrid as well, although we saw what happened to the CRZ. Maybe Toyota (the hybrid king) would make it work. However the powertrain will be Subaru, so I doubt a hybrid version happening.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

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      01-13-2020 10:51 AM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      The fix is so ****ing simple. Take the 2.4. Remove turbos. Make it rev to 8K and make power all the way up there. Make it a mild hybrid for emissions if necessary. They're gonna ruin it
      If Honda cannot make a 8k rpm redline affordable car in 2020, I don't think Toyota can...
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    9. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 10:59 AM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      It would be very disappointing if they went turbo-only on this. I also don't understand how they can go from a 2.0L N/A engine to a 2.4L turbo engine with what little space there is in that engine bay already.

      If they fix the NVH and keep an N/A engine, they can shut up and take my money.

      Like those renders too.
      An extra .4L of displacement is unlikely to substantially increase the footprint of the motor. Heck, you can usually bump up displacement of a 2L to 2.2 or so with nothing but an overbore. In fact, engine package size is often only loosely correlated with displacement. Exterior packaging design (accessories, intake, exhaust, etc.) usually has more to do with fitment than displacement. As far as fitting a turbo- you can fit a turbo (especially a small one) almost anywhere, and there are plenty of turbocharged BRZs running around.

      As far as the specific rumor: I'd note that the next gen STI is also likely to get the 2.4FA motor. In STI trim, it will likely get a bigger turbo (compared to the Ascent), some head work for revs, and output somewhere north of 310 (though probably not more than the 345 in the S209). That motor would be a pretty spicy meatball in the BRZ. But I agree there's a decent chance the BRZ will just get an NA version of the motor instead. It would need some work to give it the appropriate feel, but I suppose its doable. A bump of 20-30hp/tq from the added displacement (especially torque) would probably address most of the complaints about the BRZ's lack of power (except for the tuner crowd wanting turbos).

    10. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 11:01 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by Avus View Post
      If Honda cannot make a 8k rpm redline affordable car in 2020, I don't think Toyota can...
      I would expect more like low 7000s if they are going NA. Your bog standard NA street motor that revs to 6,500 can usually be bumped into the 7,000s with nothing but some stiffer valve springs, cams, and necessary tuning. But 8,000+ starts requiring a lot more thought (and a lot more deviation from non-performance designs), which would make it cost prohibitive.

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      01-13-2020 11:05 AM #10
      Has anyone else looked at a dyno graph for these things? 140wtq is about all it'll do on 93. And the torque curve is flat, 175whp too. I don't see it making anywhere near 250bhp without a turbo. The only way it makes something even close to 200whp is with no cats, a tune, and e85. It's going to be turbo or it's going to be crammed in the engine bay and just bigger.
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      01-13-2020 11:08 AM #11
      They need to turbo it. Many more people will buy the car if they can keep it affordable. The non tuners will appreciate the extra power and the tuners will be able to make these much more fun. It's a win win.

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      01-13-2020 11:09 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      I would expect more like low 7000s if they are going NA. Your bog standard NA street motor that revs to 6,500 can usually be bumped into the 7,000s with nothing but some stiffer valve springs, cams, and necessary tuning. But 8,000+ starts requiring a lot more thought (and a lot more deviation from non-performance designs), which would make it cost prohibitive.
      Yeah 8,000 rpm redline is not going to happen. I hate to break people the bad news, but they aren't going to develop a purpose-built engine for a low volume sportscar in 2020.

      I say just give it the 2.4L FA24DIT from the ascent and call it a day. That's a great engine and has made over 500 whp on a 100% stock, unopened engine which is a testament to it's strength.
      Last edited by Goingnowherefast; 01-13-2020 at 11:16 AM.
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    14. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 11:13 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      An extra .4L of displacement is unlikely to substantially increase the footprint of the motor. Heck, you can usually bump up displacement of a 2L to 2.2 or so with nothing but an overbore. In fact, engine package size is often only loosely correlated with displacement. Exterior packaging design (accessories, intake, exhaust, etc.) usually has more to do with fitment than displacement. As far as fitting a turbo- you can fit a turbo (especially a small one) almost anywhere, and there are plenty of turbocharged BRZs running around.

      As far as the specific rumor: I'd note that the next gen STI is also likely to get the 2.4FA motor. In STI trim, it will likely get a bigger turbo (compared to the Ascent), some head work for revs, and output somewhere north of 310 (though probably not more than the 345 in the S209). That motor would be a pretty spicy meatball in the BRZ. But I agree there's a decent chance the BRZ will just get an NA version of the motor instead. It would need some work to give it the appropriate feel, but I suppose its doable. A bump of 20-30hp/tq from the added displacement (especially torque) would probably address most of the complaints about the BRZ's lack of power (except for the tuner crowd wanting turbos).
      And a spicy engine like that might cannibalize the Supra. And potentially increase the price a lot compared to the first generation.
      Quote Originally Posted by ENV² View Post
      They need to turbo it. Many more people will buy the car if they can keep it affordable. The non tuners will appreciate the extra power and the tuners will be able to make these much more fun. It's a win win.

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      I don't care if they offer both (especially if it is the same engine both ways). But I do not want the turbo, full stop. Nor do I want to pay extra for it. That's me, however.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    15. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 11:15 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      Yeah 8,000 rpm redline is not going to happen. I hate to break people the bad news, but they aren't going to develop a propose-built engine for a low volume sportscar in 2020.

      I say just give it the 2.4L FA24DIT from the ascent and call it a day. That's a great engine and has made over 500 whp on a 100% stock, unopened engine which is a testament to it's strength.
      Speaking as an Ascent owner, i would hope they work it over just a bit before dropping it in a sports car. It's got a great powerband for a family SUV, but I think it would be a bit disappointing in a sports car. Since it's optimized for low and midrange power, it punishes you for really getting on it. Since they are already working on it for the STI (which almost certainly wouldn't get a bog standard 250hp 2.4), I would think they will. However, I also don't see the STI motor going in the BRZ unless they want to go full send and do a BRZ STI.

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      01-13-2020 11:18 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      Speaking as an Ascent owner, i would hope they work it over just a bit before dropping it in a sports car. It's got a great powerband for a family SUV, but I think it would be a bit disappointing in a sports car. Since it's optimized for low and midrange power, it punishes you for really getting on it. Since they are already working on it for the STI (which almost certainly wouldn't get a bog standard 250hp 2.4), I would think they will. However, I also don't see the STI motor going in the BRZ unless they want to go full send and do a BRZ STI.
      Devils advocate: The powerband is already insanely un-optimized for a sportcar platform. Note the disgustingly large dip in the middle of the powerband.

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    17. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 11:21 AM #16
      Wait, didnt everyone use to complain that that 86/BRZ needed a turbo, but now everyone is just saying it needs larger displacement ?

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      01-13-2020 11:25 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      Wait, didnt everyone use to complain that that 86/BRZ needed a turbo, but now everyone is just saying it needs larger displacement ?
      More displacement = Generally more power/torque depending on how the displacement is achieved.
      Turbo = Almost always more power/torque.

      Seems that people are being pretty consistent with what they want, it's just the means to achieve it varies. People just need to understand Toyota/Subaru are not going to dump a bunch of money into powertrain development for such a low volume, niche car.
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      01-13-2020 11:26 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      Yeah 8,000 rpm redline is not going to happen. I hate to break people the bad news, but they aren't going to develop a purpose-built engine for a low volume sportscar in 2020.
      They don't have to. They could easily pull an ND2 with the FA24. IIRC it has the same 86mm stroke as the current FA20 and a boatload of 8K+ RPM Honda motors. Yes they would have to modify the engine to rev that high but I doubt it would be significantly more expensive than the FA20 if at all. It's very possible and feasible.

    20. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 11:29 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      More displacement = Generally more power/torque depending on how the displacement is achieved.
      Turbo = Almost always more power/torque.

      Seems that people are being pretty consistent with what they want, it's just the means to achieve it varies. People just need to understand Toyota/Subaru are not going to dump a bunch of money into powertrain development for such a low volume, niche car.
      No I get that, but I thought this car's crux was it always lacked torque, adding a turbo would definitely help that out. Plus the tuning benefits of a turbo vs NA engine. This car is definitely geared towards the tuner type too. I'm just a bit surprised everyone is against it. I think this car would be awesome with a turbo on it

    21. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 11:31 AM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      Devils advocate: The powerband is already insanely un-optimized for a sportcar platform. Note the disgustingly large dip in the middle of the powerband.

      The torque curve is trash, but at least power scales relatively linearly with RPM and doesn't tank in the last 1,000rpm of the power band. Compare an Ascent dyno:



      Torque starts going down after 4,000rpm and power drops starting at 5,000. The midrange focus is fine for an SUV, but you really don't want a sports car with that power band. The midrange focus is actually a big part of the reason why I went STI over WRX. The WRX is initially exciting, but when you really push it feels like it falls flat on its face because all that midrange falls off in the upper part of the tach. The STI encourages you to push it because it keeps building until just before redline.

      Last edited by Nealric; 01-13-2020 at 11:39 AM.

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      01-13-2020 11:32 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Would using the TNGA platform give it the extra room for the bigger motor?
      It astonishes me this could keep coming up on a car forum, but more displacement does not mean a "bigger motor."

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_FA_engine#FA24

      The FA24 is the same size block as an FA20, just bored out from a square 86mm to 94mm. What takes up additional space would be the turbocharger, intercooler, and any additional fluid capacity needed.



      My understanding of the FA24 was that it was designed for a flat torque curve and regular fuel though, so I imagine they'd want to tune it a bit differently for the 86. That's if it's an FA24 at all and not a turbocharged FA20, given how many markets penalize that extra 400cc of displacement...

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      01-13-2020 11:39 AM #22
      The TNGA platform is shared with Prius. Does this now mean the new 86 will handle as well as new Prius? Will there now be an 86 prime?

      I have a feeling it won't be the basic sports car of this generation, but how important is that? Doesn't a Camry SE, also on TNGA, handle pretty well?

    24. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 11:43 AM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      Wait, didnt everyone use to complain that that 86/BRZ needed a turbo, but now everyone is just saying it needs larger displacement ?
      Some don't necessarily want either and are fine with the engine current car.

      <-----

      As long as it has enough torque to return good highway fuel economy, I don't care. I love wringing out that car. I am also biased having grown up with an N/A RX-7, so.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
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    25. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 11:44 AM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Blonde Guy View Post
      The TNGA platform is shared with Prius. Does this now mean the new 86 will handle as well as new Prius? Will there now be an 86 prime?

      I have a feeling it won't be the basic sports car of this generation, but how important is that? Doesn't a Camry SE, also on TNGA, handle pretty well?
      Platforms have become so customizable that you can build cars on the same platform that really don't have much in common. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions based on the use of TNGA. The platform hosts everything from the Lexus LC 500 to the Toyota Highlander to the Yaris and accommodates FR, FF, and AWD configurations as well as both transverse and longitudinal engine mounting.

    26. 01-13-2020 11:58 AM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      I also don't understand how they can go from a 2.0L N/A engine to a 2.4L turbo engine with what little space there is in that engine bay already.
      Right. Because, as we all know, there is no room in that engine bay for a bigger engine.

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