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    Thread: Coronavirus: US Declares Public Health Emergency

    1. Banned by John until they unbanned me zukiphile's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 06:20 AM #10251
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      BTW, did you ever ask your daughter...
      You can't be proud of that.

      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      I don't know what you did to earn Zuk's esteem.
      He whispers sic transit gloria into my ear. It keeps me from planning to take over the world.

      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post

      That aside, I give zero fcuks what you think...
      Clearly.
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      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool
      You called me a "moron" on the Vortex, which is clearly in violation of the terms of use. I reported you.

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    3. Banned by John until they unbanned me zukiphile's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 06:33 AM #10252
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      All the nuance and art of the English language is lost to you. It's a pity. But it also means that you are, in a very real way, functionally illiterate.
      Behold the irony.

      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      Also, regarding the earlier denial of misogynistic writing, here's another gem:

      ...Dr Amy Acton, known locally as Amy Ovary Acton.

      Ha ha! She has ovaries! Oh, man, well done! Does having ovaries make you "less" human than if you're gay? How does that hierarchy work, exactly?
      I'm slightly surprised you thought this easy word play was about her having ovaries or being a woman. You were at least an E5, weren't you? I don't consider you innately stupid. Jokes may not seem funny if your anger makes everything look like the big white whale that took your leg.
      Unofficial Feelings Manager for OT.
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool
      You called me a "moron" on the Vortex, which is clearly in violation of the terms of use. I reported you.

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      05-23-2020 07:27 AM #10253
      Quote Originally Posted by OttaCee View Post
      Sorry you think I think the whole thing is a hoax. Based on the stats and science that out there, its not a hoax for those at risk. Ive personally been impacted - Lost 2 people I was close to COVID and I have two parents in the high risk with pre-existing conditions im very worried about getting it.

      Was asking a legitimate question because I am interested in taking the antibody test but dont want to spend the money if the test isnt accurate.
      I’m sorry to hear that. I also have high risk parents (and luckily, one remaining grandparent on both my side and my wife’s side) that are high risk. Wife’s grandparent is at a nursing home that had a small outbreak, but luckily she came back negative. As I’ve said in this thread, we do have a high risk child as well. (They do exist in this, don’t think just because your state doesn’t have any deaths under age 60 that there aren’t problems faced by them as we try to get everything back online)


      Anyway, some of your previous posts had made you sound more Zuki than science. If that’s not the case, I apologize.
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    5. 05-23-2020 08:07 AM #10254
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Oh I know, it is just a shtty practice that I think is BS.
      Tis a byproduct of a ****ty law

      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      I saw a bill come out of IN to address these shenanigans but their spineless governor vetoed it. This really should not be an issue. Also, those ER docs/nurses wear hospital badges, so a layman wouldn't think they weren't employees......but that's a rant for another thread
      We have had the same complaint here, however the issue that you run into is that the badges don't denote employment status so much as identification and authorization to be there. I get your point, but not sure what the solution really is.

      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Small insurance issues aside, I do see more docs/hospitals asking for 'copay' on a deductible plan up front (and then asking for more after the claim is processed ). What is funny is that if you ask a doc/hospital what the procedure will cost they won't give you a dollar amount, and if you ask the insurer they will advise that it depends on how the provider bills. I can not wait for the transparency legislation to roll out (and the providers will hurt the most, so they better hope covid doesn't kill the voting ARP population ). rabble rabble rabble
      At our businesses you pay 100% of what you are expected to owe prior to ever showing up on the schedule. No pay, no schedule. If you are in medicine and not collecting 90% of what you are expected to be owed on first visit, then you are going to go bankrupt more than likely.

      Here's the problem with pricing transparency. Everyone has different pricing contracts. Say you look up on this site that Medicaid pays 1/3rd of what your insurance is paying, do you scream that you should get the same price? Or when Medicare pays 60% of what your price is? Ultimately what a provider charges is totally meaningless, what their contracts reimburse is the only relevant fact.

    6. Banned by John until they unbanned me zukiphile's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 08:34 AM #10255
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      What is funny is that if you ask a doc/hospital what the procedure will cost they won't give you a dollar amount, and if you ask the insurer they will advise that it depends on how the provider bills. I can not wait for the transparency legislation to roll out (and the providers will hurt the most, so they better hope covid doesn't kill the voting ARP population ). rabble rabble rabble
      Quote Originally Posted by bave View Post
      Here's the problem with pricing transparency. Everyone has different pricing contracts. Say you look up on this site that Medicaid pays 1/3rd of what your insurance is paying, do you scream that you should get the same price? Or when Medicare pays 60% of what your price is? Ultimately what a provider charges is totally meaningless, what their contracts reimburse is the only relevant fact.
      As much as I like the variability in provider/insurance contracts when these matters are litigated, they have a hand in creating the monster of political pressure for government run systems. People may have many medical care options, but opacity removes the sense that they have made reasonable choices about those options.
      Unofficial Feelings Manager for OT.
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool
      You called me a "moron" on the Vortex, which is clearly in violation of the terms of use. I reported you.

    7. 05-23-2020 09:07 AM #10256
      Quote Originally Posted by vwbrvr6 View Post
      Brasilains have an even more lackadaisical attitude then Americans do. It's going to get really bad for them. And today they hit number 2. I would like to see a travel ban from there, do we have one?
      I would consider it highly likely that countries which have beaten this virus will do something like what Iceland is planning to do for international travelers from countries that have not beaten it (it's possible that exceptions will be granted for "known" situations). When you arrive in the country (they will not put faith in anyone else's testing but their own) you either have a test done at your own expense (rumored to be $300-ish) AND you install their contact-tracing application on your phone (and you must have one), or you go into supervised quarantine for 14 days (no cheating).

      I would consider this to be a reasonable approach. I'll happily have that test done and install their contact-tracing application if it allows resumption of international travel.

      Outright travel bans from specific countries are troublesome in many respects. The science-based approach is as fair as it can be, and avoids the political problems and economic disruption associated with travel bans.

    8. Member vwbrvr6's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 09:34 AM #10257
      Whats up with California? Haven't they been on a pretty heavy lockdown, compared to say FL. Their cases seem to be still on an upward trajectory.
      It go down in the DM

    9. Senior Member DonL's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 09:45 AM #10258
      Quote Originally Posted by vwbrvr6 View Post
      Whats up with California? Haven't they been on a pretty heavy lockdown, compared to say FL. Their cases seem to be still on an upward trajectory.
      Dunno. They may be testing at a higher rate and seeing more positive results. I did a 2-minute Google and couldn't find concrete numbers, though.
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    10. Senior Member A.Wilder's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 09:55 AM #10259
      Quote Originally Posted by vwbrvr6 View Post
      Whats up with California? Haven't they been on a pretty heavy lockdown, compared to say FL. Their cases seem to be still on an upward trajectory.
      Probably not manipulating/faking the data...
      signatures are annoying, right?

    11. Senior Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 09:57 AM #10260
      Quote Originally Posted by vwbrvr6 View Post
      Whats up with California? Haven't they been on a pretty heavy lockdown, compared to say FL. Their cases seem to be still on an upward trajectory.
      CA cases are up then down on repeat. Most importantly they are within manageable limits for the healthcare system to handle. Hence why reopening phases have started such as reopening retail and passive recreation.

    12. 05-23-2020 09:57 AM #10261
      Quote Originally Posted by vwbrvr6 View Post
      Whats up with California? Haven't they been on a pretty heavy lockdown, compared to say FL. Their cases seem to be still on an upward trajectory.
      Low test rates in FL. Undercounting deaths.

      As Ron DeSantis hypes low numbers, Florida may be undercounting coronavirus deaths by up to 58%

      A new model also projects that Florida will be hit hard over the next four weeks as the state reopens

      Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis lashed out at the media Wednesday for criticizing his coronavirus response, claiming that his state had defied expectations even as a new analysis showed it might be undercounting deaths by up to 58%.

      DeSantis, a Republican, countered criticisms of the firing of state health department's COVID-19 data chief by arguing that Florida had the "best data" among its 49 peers. The governor also touted that Florida had a "lower death rate" than most regions in the country.

      "People just don't want to recognize it, because it challenges their narrative," he claimed. "It challenges their assumption, so they've got to try and find a boogeyman."

      But an analysis by the Tampa Bay Times and a health researcher at the University of South Florida found that Florida's death toll might be too good to be true. According to the findings, the "epidemic's true toll" might be between 17% and 58% higher than the reported numbers.

      "Health experts say that likely includes some people who died of coronavirus but were never diagnosed, as well as others who might have lived had the pandemic not kept them from getting care," the Tampa Bay Times reported.
      00:00/00:00

      "There are indirect and direct consequences of a pandemic like this," Mark Hayward, an expert in mortality statistics at the University of Texas at Austin, told the outlet. "Of course, we know the direct consequences. Some of the other ones are poorly measured."

      Recent analyses by The New York Times and Washington Post similarly found that coronavirus deaths around the country have been undercounted due to a lack of testing and other factors. At the same time, President Donald Trump and members of the White House coronavirus task force have reportedly pressured the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to change how they count deaths, which would lower the death toll.

      Florida officials have likewise leaned on medical examiners to stop releasing their own death counts after they showed more deaths than the official state total. DeSantis' recent complaints about the media came as he defended the firing of Rebekah Jones, the architect of the state's coronavirus dashboard, who claims that she was terminated for refusing to manipulate data to support the governor's reopening plan.

      DeSantis counter claimed that Jones was fired by the state for insubordination and denied that she was the "architect" of the dashboard, which was praised by White House coronavirus task force coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx. Jones said she wrote "every line of code."

      DeSantis' cited Birx's praise as he criticized the media for what he called a "partisan narrative" surrounding his push to reopen.

      "You've got a lot of people in your profession who waxed poetically for weeks and weeks about how Florida was going to be just like New York," DeSantis said. "'Wait two weeks, Florida is going to be next. Just like Italy — wait two weeks.' Well, hell, we're eight weeks away from that — and it hasn't happened."

      But infectious disease experts warned that DeSantis' boasts might be premature.

      A new model developed by the PolicyLab at Children's Hospital in Philadelphia projects that a "second wave" of coronavirus infections will hit Southeast Florida and southern states over the next four weeks, according to the Washington Post.

      "As communities reopen, we're starting to detect evidence of resurgence in cases in places that have overreached a bit," David Rubin, the director of PolicyLab, told the outlet.

      Rubin said that South Florida is expected to get particularly hard.

      "That Southeast coast, they're just starting to open up and relax," he said. "It's a densely crowded area. There's a lot of tinder down there."
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    13. 05-23-2020 09:59 AM #10262
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      As much as I like the variability in provider/insurance contracts when these matters are litigated, they have a hand in creating the monster of political pressure for government run systems. People may have many medical care options, but opacity removes the sense that they have made reasonable choices about those options.
      I don't disagree, the system is so convoluted at this point I am not sure how you change it in a productive way. Ultimately it is going to boil down to a patient saying....

      "Wait a minute. I am getting the same procedure done as Bob, by the same doctors, at the same facility, on the same day. But my insurance is paying you 3x as much as Bob and thus my out of pocket expense is also much higher. I want Bob's price."

      The problem is that Bob's price is the one of the major problems in the health care space. What you are never going to be able to explain to the patient above is that Bob has medicaid, facilities are held at government gunpoint to take care of Bob, and that your insurance and your OOP expense is actually subsidizing Bob, tough ****".

    14. 05-23-2020 10:00 AM #10263
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      For instance, your stats on flu deaths aren’t controversial, but your insistence that they’re relevant in this case is a point of contention. ... We’re not disputing the facts around the economic damage, but making different judgements about how much is acceptable to save lives.
      How can you write those two sentences at the beginning and end of a single paragraph and not see the tension if not outright contradiction? How exactly can you make any judgment about how much economic damage is acceptable to save lives without reference to the preceding similar judgments? It is not reasonable to disregard the relevance of every preceding risk assessment just because a new disease is not exactly like prior diseases.

      If this disease turns out to be three times as deadly as a really bad flu season, why exactly are we willing to respond in a manner a zillion times more damaging to our economy as our routine response to the annual flu season? If you can't find an answer more reasonable than, "Because that will help China end Trump's trade war, and help defeat Trump" then you are properly regarded as a partisan hack or hysterical.

      That opposition to hysteria isn't a claim that the disease is a hoax; it isn't a claim that "this is just the flu." If you're not willing to inform this risk assessment with principles, values, or weights gleaned from past responses to similar but not identical instances, how exactly is your risk assessment supposed to be reasonable or proportionate rather than hysterical?

      If a really bad flu season isn't the most similar past precedent to inform our risk assessment, then perhaps you can provide a more similar precedent that we can use to measure our response, without being caricatured as callous to the cost of lives.
      Last edited by Slapoquidik; 05-23-2020 at 10:02 AM.
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    15. 05-23-2020 10:25 AM #10264
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      ...I give zero fcuks what you think of my opinion because you're online persona is that of a despicable human being.
      If you were a little smarter, or just a lot more honest, that might bother me. But it doesn't. Have a happy Memorial Day weekend!
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    16. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 10:45 AM #10265
      Quote Originally Posted by bave View Post
      I don't disagree, the system is so convoluted at this point I am not sure how you change it in a productive way. Ultimately it is going to boil down to a patient saying....

      "Wait a minute. I am getting the same procedure done as Bob, by the same doctors, at the same facility, on the same day. But my insurance is paying you 3x as much as Bob and thus my out of pocket expense is also much higher. I want Bob's price."
      Well, we don't have to pull the curtain all the way back I don't have a solution, but I do know that technology and health interoperability have come a long way and soon there really shouldn't be an issue in providing individuals with the necessary data (or at the very least a small ball park estimate).
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    17. Member OttaCee's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 12:56 PM #10266
      If not sure if anyone is offering the help others at risk in the community but if you town/city uses Nextdoor (www.nextdoor.com), you can register yourself to help anyone that needs it. Its called "Help Map"

      Been doing it for about 2 weeks now and its been rewarding. My city contacts me about people in my own neighborhood that need help on trips to the store. Made two trips this week to the pharmacies and grocery stores for 3 families. Only takes up 2-3hrs a week and gets me to get out of the house.

      Pretty amazing meeting each of the families, every one has a different story why they cannot risk going into high risk areas. The one I feel the most for is the husband and wife in their late 70s. Wife undergoing chemo and hasnt been in public since early March, and the husband was scheduled for hip replacement but keeps getting it delayed. So he's been risking it all to go into the stores. Last night, I get a knock on the door and its a delivery driver holding a bunch of craft beer. He gives it to me with a note from that family thanking me for my help.

      I know we are doing our part on distancing, proper cleaning/hygiene but feel there's a missing local commitment on protecting those as risk. Hope others that are serious on lowering the cases in their own community will consider looking into similar programs. If anything positive comes out of this, its helping these families stay in the neighborhood longer.
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    18. 05-23-2020 01:12 PM #10267
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Well, we don't have to pull the curtain all the way back I don't have a solution, but I do know that technology and health interoperability have come a long way and soon there really shouldn't be an issue in providing individuals with the necessary data (or at the very least a small ball park estimate).
      I generally agree with letting markets work, but that doesn't work when the government provides ~2/3rds of the care at dictated pricing. All it is going to do is enrage the remaining third that is subsidizing the others while not really changing a hell of a lot for the better. Do you think the Medicare/Medicaid patient is going to give a flying crap about the cost? Hell no, they don't have real skin in the game.

    19. 05-23-2020 01:55 PM #10268
      Quote Originally Posted by bave View Post
      I generally agree with letting markets work, but that doesn't work when the government provides ~2/3rds of the care at dictated pricing. All it is going to do is enrage the remaining third that is subsidizing the others while not really changing a hell of a lot for the better. Do you think the Medicare/Medicaid patient is going to give a flying crap about the cost? Hell no, they don't have real skin in the game.
      How realistic is it for people to be able to shop around by price for health care? Now when you go to a hospital ER, you may receive multiple bills because the hospital and find out that although the hospital is "in network", the doctor working there is "out of network". And every year my wife has had to change various doctors because they are no longer covered by our insurance. Healthcare in the US just plain sucks and can be ridiculously complex and overpriced.
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    20. 05-23-2020 02:11 PM #10269
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      How realistic is it for people to be able to shop around by price for health care? Now when you go to a hospital ER, you may receive multiple bills because the hospital and find out that although the hospital is "in network", the doctor working there is "out of network". And every year my wife has had to change various doctors because they are no longer covered by our insurance. Healthcare in the US just plain sucks and can be ridiculously complex and overpriced.
      If you are cash pay it isn't that hard, I would say 3-5% of our encounters are cash pay where they get an all-in cash price quote with the only deviation from that if something unexpected occurs intra-operatively.

      The big reason healthcare is overpriced is because the vast majority of patients in this country are not paying sufficiently into the system via reimbursement. When medicare/medicaid/tricare all pay below the cost to provide care, it sucks for the remaining minority that have to make up their deficiency.

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      05-23-2020 02:28 PM #10270
      Quote Originally Posted by vwbrvr6 View Post
      The Brazilian President has an even more lackadaisical attitude then Americans do. It's going to get really bad for them. And today they hit number 2. I would like to see a travel ban from there, do we have one?
      FTFY

    22. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 02:41 PM #10271
      Quote Originally Posted by bave View Post
      All it is going to do is enrage the remaining third
      So it won't make anything different then
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    23. 05-23-2020 02:51 PM #10272
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      So it won't make anything different then
      Yea, that's my .02 at least.

    24. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 03:16 PM #10273
      Quote Originally Posted by Slapoquidik View Post
      How can you write those two sentences at the beginning and end of a single paragraph and not see the tension if not outright contradiction? How exactly can you make any judgment about how much economic damage is acceptable to save lives without reference to the preceding similar judgments? It is not reasonable to disregard the relevance of every preceding risk assessment just because a new disease is not exactly like prior diseases.

      If this disease turns out to be three times as deadly as a really bad flu season, why exactly are we willing to respond in a manner a zillion times more damaging to our economy as our routine response to the annual flu season? If you can't find an answer more reasonable than, "Because that will help China end Trump's trade war, and help defeat Trump" then you are properly regarded as a partisan hack or hysterical.

      That opposition to hysteria isn't a claim that the disease is a hoax; it isn't a claim that "this is just the flu." If you're not willing to inform this risk assessment with principles, values, or weights gleaned from past responses to similar but not identical instances, how exactly is your risk assessment supposed to be reasonable or proportionate rather than hysterical?

      If a really bad flu season isn't the most similar past precedent to inform our risk assessment, then perhaps you can provide a more similar precedent that we can use to measure our response, without being caricatured as callous to the cost of lives.
      Ironic that you can toss around an accusation of hysteria. Tell us more about the impending Chinese Covid 20-25 attacks.


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      05-23-2020 05:25 PM #10274
      Quote Originally Posted by Slapoquidik View Post
      If this disease turns out to be three times as deadly as a really bad flu season, why exactly are we willing to respond in a manner a zillion times more damaging to our economy as our routine response to the annual flu season? If you can't find an answer more reasonable than, "Because that will help China end Trump's trade war, and help defeat Trump" then you are properly regarded as a partisan hack or hysterical.
      So you really think that the efforts that we've been engaging in for the past two+ months are all some grand scheme to defeat Trump? That is some next level paranoia.
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      05-23-2020 05:34 PM #10275
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Ironic that you can toss around an accusation of hysteria. Tell us more about the impending Chinese Covid 20-25 attacks.


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      Bruh, the first 18 didn’t shut down our economy durr durr
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