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    Thread: Car and Driver Test: Mustang Shelby GT500 vs. Camaro ZL1 1LE vs. Challenger Hellcat Redeye

    1. Member compy222's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 02:51 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by DubbinGT View Post
      The Challenger is showing its age but looks pretty clean aside from the cringe model names they keep giving it.

      Mustang is excessive with the Aero.

      Camaro is ugly and excessive.
      i tend to disagree, the camaro and mustang both look cool in person. i drive by the camaro factory in Lansing nearly every day and will tell you the morning i saw my first 1LE ZL1 with the front dive planes and wing I nearly spit my coffee out. it was crazy to see, i like the wild, i like garish, the whole freaking point of this stuff is to show up to the track or the strip with the most absurd factory build possible...and i love that. it's the golden age, you might say excessive, but nobody is going to put dive planes on a factory plug-in hybrid in the near future.

      i'll give major credit to dodge offering all the crazy trims, colors, etc. if you're going to offer up 60k, you want silly and stupid. nobody is buying these things because they want practical.
      Quote Originally Posted by capsaicin View Post
      AP1 S2000? I can not in good conscience talk you out of that. May your slip angle be great and your bed not be the couch!

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    3. Global Moderator MylesPH1's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 03:21 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Minority5 View Post
      When you get to these kind of power levels and torque-the S550s glaring weakness (steering) is amplified. I do prefer the ride of the GT500, but that vague rack is truly dicsoncerning at XXX speeds. The 1LE does have a harsh ride at times, but I rather deal with that for what is essentially a weekend toy.
      Actually, I’d go further than that - besides the front lip of the Z/28 being impractical anywhere you had to park nose-in, it really wasn’t that bad to drive around town. If you were up on Angeles Crest and hit wavy pavement at just the right speed, yes you’d get the head smack. But on broken pavement around town, the Camaro was better than a nose heavy fwd car, where the front wheels crash into potholes and the light rear end just bounces. And at higher speeds I’d never driven a car that managed to keep its wheels in contact with the ground like the Z, between the suspension and the aero package, so yeah, I found it to be downright accommodating all things considered.

      I’m sure the Ford might initially be more comfy, but I prefer Chevy’s approach too - if the car is fast, I’ll sacrifice plush feel for more reliable contact with the road.
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    4. 02-13-2020 03:44 PM #28
      After trying the lower-proof options of all three, I surprised myself by greatly preferring the Challenger. It was awesome on the road, comfy, and seriously smile-inducing. If I wanted something with better handling and wanted to keep the V8 - I'd get a (probably slower) Corvette. The Mustang is very, very good but occupies a weird middle ground between GT, muscle car, and sports car. It's definitely a "better" performance car, and probably better all-around car, as the Challenger but less good of a toy. As a tall guy, the Camaro is a no-go even as a toy.
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    5. Member Minority5's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 04:00 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by MylesPH1 View Post
      Actually, I’d go further than that - besides the front lip of the Z/28 being impractical anywhere you had to park nose-in, it really wasn’t that bad to drive around town. If you were up on Angeles Crest and hit wavy pavement at just the right speed, yes you’d get the head smack. But on broken pavement around town, the Camaro was better than a nose heavy fwd car, where the front wheels crash into potholes and the light rear end just bounces. And at higher speeds I’d never driven a car that managed to keep its wheels in contact with the ground like the Z, between the suspension and the aero package, so yeah, I found it to be downright accommodating all things considered.

      I’m sure the Ford might initially be more comfy, but I prefer Chevy’s approach too - if the car is fast, I’ll sacrifice plush feel for more reliable contact with the road.
      For me there is a stretch of road in downtown Detroit that is my own litmus test for a 'comfortable' ride. Most cars with big wheels fail. And I agree-note when I say 'comfortable' I mean that in context-none of these things will be confused with an XTS But over certain stretches, I overall preferred the Shelby, the CF wheels probably have a lot to do with that aspect. But again, the Camaro for me 99.7% of the time. Especially considering the price difference.

      For the record, I've always back into spaces after an incident with a prototype C6 front bumper many moons ago. I didn't live that one down for at least two programs.
      Last edited by Minority5; 02-13-2020 at 04:02 PM.

    6. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      02-13-2020 04:43 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      Look, I get what you’re saying. But the one thing these cars aren’t is overpriced.
      I didn't say they were overpriced though, my teenage jaw was just dropping at $80k, $90k for a pony car. That was the point of my original comment.

      I remember magazine tests where Z28 Camaros and Mustang GTs were in the teens. I remember the Terminator coming out at $35k, and how amazing its performance was then.

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      02-13-2020 04:56 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      While yes, there is Camaro stigma out there and esp. from people that can afford these cars (and end up with a M3/M4 instead), for me personally, I still cannot wrap my head around the looks. All the way back to the yellow Transformer car. I love '67-69 Gen 1s, would gladly pay $$ for a 70.5 Z/28, there's a '78 Z/28 resto mod in my neighborhood that is the real deal that i enjoy, etc, etc, etc...but all that aside I'd take the new Mustang over the Camaro all day long and twice on Sunday (in any comparative iteration) just on the ext/int look/dimensions alone.
      For sure. Everyone has a deal breaker. Some it's the visibility, some it's the looks, and some it's the tooth loss and domestic violence. I even had to shrug and get over the looks of my SS since I like the way it drives so much.
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    8. 02-13-2020 05:03 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      I didn't say they were overpriced though, my teenage jaw was just dropping at $80k, $90k for a pony car. That was the point of my original comment.

      I remember magazine tests where Z28 Camaros and Mustang GTs were in the teens. I remember the Terminator coming out at $35k, and how amazing its performance was then.
      To each their own, but to me, once the car is able to hit 0-60 in 4s, the extra power that makes it go faster has less value to me than added luxury, looks etc...

      A 3.5s 0-60 ZL1 with a billion horsepower is only 1.05x better than a regular 4.0s SS Camaro (to me). As dumb as it sound, ZL1 in my book is about $2,750 upgrade to a regular SS. Law of diminishing returns hits hard after 400hp, imo.

      So in my book, all these superpony cars are idiotically overpriced. I'm sure they have their customers though.

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      02-13-2020 05:09 PM #33
      Not going to even address the previous post.

      If I had to pick one for my only toy, I think I'd take the GT500. It's the true ultimate Mustang and has some very advanced tech to match.

      Can't lose with any of the though.
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    10. Member Minority5's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 05:28 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      Damn the 1LE is a bargin super car basically. It's like what the GTR was 13 years ago (cant believe its been that long)
      The base ZL1 for example is actually match for a Carrera 911 in a lot of instances (driving). For an MSRP of under $65K.

      You couldn't begin to say that about a 4G vs.964.

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      02-13-2020 05:29 PM #35
      I would like to drive one of these camaros

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      02-13-2020 05:36 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by chocofrappe55 View Post
      . As dumb as it sound, ZL1 in my book is about $2,750 upgrade to a regular SS. Law of diminishing returns hits hard after 400hp, imo.
      I’m all for everybody having different priorities - that’s why all the different engine and suspension options exist in the first place - but I’d love to hear the formula for this specific dollar amount you came up with...
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      02-13-2020 05:38 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by JustinCSVT View Post
      Not going to even address the previous post.


      I would take the Mustang. And about seventeen pairs of rear tires.

    14. Member Minority5's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 05:47 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by MylesPH1 View Post
      I’m all for everybody having different priorities - that’s why all the different engine and suspension options exist in the first place - but I’d love to hear the formula for this specific dollar amount you came up with...
      ^^

      Exactly. As it's been noted in this thread, the R&D and parts buys to get this kind of of well rounded performance isn't cheap. Is there a ****ton of margin on these there cars? Sure, but that's an industry wide model (and a necessity).

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      02-13-2020 06:07 PM #39
      The guys @ Throttle House posted this a couple of weeks ago


    16. Member 2 doors's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 11:13 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      I didn't say they were overpriced though, my teenage jaw was just dropping at $80k, $90k for a pony car. That was the point of my original comment.

      I remember magazine tests where Z28 Camaros and Mustang GTs were in the teens. I remember the Terminator coming out at $35k, and how amazing its performance was then.
      Fair enough. To my teenage brain, 300 hp is a lot! 650 is NASCAR levels of power.

    17. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 11:20 PM #41
      These are cool but I have no need for more than the plain ole slow GT350.
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      02-14-2020 08:31 AM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      Fair enough. To my teenage brain, 300 hp is a lot! 650 is NASCAR levels of power.
      And think, in two years time, we will have several 650+ HP electric pick-em up trucks to choose from!

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      02-14-2020 09:13 AM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      Fair enough. To my teenage brain, 300 hp is a lot! 650 is NASCAR levels of power.
      My last year as a teen the Mustang GT and IROC Z had something like 210-220hp....back then 300hp was unimaginable amounts of power for a production car.
      The 5 top US-made HP cars of that year were all in the 205-235 range.

      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      These are cool but I have no need for more than the plain ole slow GT350.
      Yep, me too.

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      02-14-2020 09:58 AM #44
      This thread has me looking at used GT350s... those can be had for <$55k now

      I have way too many choices to make when my lease is up:
      - GT4 (if I get an allocation)
      - 718 GTS 4.0
      - 992 C2S MT (almost out of budget)
      - Macan lease + used _______ w/ manuel (M2C, GT350, ???)

      I should really make a Hawk-like thread about it
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    21. Member compy222's Avatar
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      02-14-2020 10:58 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by iliveoncaffiene View Post
      This thread has me looking at used GT350s... those can be had for <$55k now

      I have way too many choices to make when my lease is up:
      - GT4 (if I get an allocation)
      - 718 GTS 4.0
      - 992 C2S MT (almost out of budget)
      - Macan lease + used _______ w/ manuel (M2C, GT350, ???)

      I should really make a Hawk-like thread about it
      the problem with the GT350's is they are known to have pretty major oil consumption issues.

      don't laugh when i say this, but got drive an SS 1LE, not even a ZL1. i've only driven a handful of cars that i've found better.
      Quote Originally Posted by capsaicin View Post
      AP1 S2000? I can not in good conscience talk you out of that. May your slip angle be great and your bed not be the couch!

    22. 02-14-2020 11:02 AM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by Senior Member View Post
      The guys @ Throttle House posted this a couple of weeks ago

      They are moving up in the world with that video. Good for them

      I like Randy's statement at the end "I'm cheap" and picks the ZL1. And he's not wrong. Looking at asking prices for track package GT500s you can buy 2 ZL1 1LEs and have some change left over. Or a fairly base Redeye with WB option and a ZL1 1LE.
      Boiler Up!

    23. 02-14-2020 11:05 AM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by iliveoncaffiene View Post
      This thread has me looking at used GT350s... those can be had for <$55k now

      I have way too many choices to make when my lease is up:
      - GT4 (if I get an allocation)
      - 718 GTS 4.0
      - 992 C2S MT (almost out of budget)
      - Macan lease + used _______ w/ manuel (M2C, GT350, ???)

      I should really make a Hawk-like thread about it
      Should go look at what Z/28s are listed at. In the high 30s for a few of them
      Boiler Up!

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      02-14-2020 12:23 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by iliveoncaffiene View Post
      This thread has me looking at used GT350s... those can be had for <$55k now :
      I highly recommend doing it! At least for a year or two. Heck, you can almost get a GT350R for that. Not the advertised prices, but actual sale prices maybe (check BaT). But your GT4 lust is also well placed, and can be had for a good deal. I’ve driven both cars on track, and it’s amazing how close they are in capability. But the GT350R is a couple seconds faster (eg: at Sonoma). And a tad more fun.

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      02-14-2020 12:25 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by Juiced6.3 View Post
      I like Randy's statement at the end "I'm cheap" and picks the ZL1. And he's not wrong. Looking at asking prices for track package GT500s you can buy 2 ZL1 1LEs and have some change left over. Or a fairly base Redeye with WB option and a ZL1 1LE.
      He's put his actual money where his mouth is. Randy recently bought a 4-cylinder Camaro 1LE as his street car.
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      02-14-2020 02:22 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by compy222 View Post
      the problem with the GT350's is they are known to have pretty major oil consumption issues.

      don't laugh when i say this, but got drive an SS 1LE, not even a ZL1. i've only driven a handful of cars that i've found better.
      S2000s, including mine, have pretty major oil consumption issues too. I mitigated it some playing with oil brands (Valvoline Syntec is the $ shot for mine) but otherwise I ain’t scared.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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