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    Thread: Running super rich - logs included - can someone please help?

    1. 03-02-2020 01:05 PM #1
      Hello All
      I hope some people here can help me out as I like to do this myself than to leave with a garage who will probably just throw parts at it and do more guess work. Money is a little tight and I do like working on problems myself anyway.

      Brief history
      S3 2011, CDL Engine, DSG 6 speed with 70k miles
      I got the car in August and it seem to drive ok I do not recall ever getting a management light.
      Upon getting the car I replaced the DV with the newest G revision from Audi.
      I had no faults to suggest anything but in the knowledge that the DV needs replaced I thought with my car having 70k miles it would be a good idea.

      I booked the car in for a service in early October 2019 and had following done;
      fuel filter, oil, plugs, haldex, oil filter, air filter,cam follower, oil pickup pipe.

      I can't say for sure the service and my next issues relate but in late November I noticed the car going into limp mode. I used my bluetooth vagcom thing and dashcmd on the iphone and found the following errors;
      Code P0172: System too rich (Bank 1) P0172
      P0441 - Evaporative Emission System Incorrect Purge Flow

      I hoped these both related and replaced the EVAP sensor (i bought a cheapy one on ebay) it didn't resolve the issue so I bit the bullet and bought one from Audi...It resolved the issue and I also replaced the carbon canister (got that on amazon so not genuine audi). The EVAP error (P0441) has never come back since.

      I get the limp mode on a daily basis almost and appears to come sooner the harder I drive it.
      The bluetooth dongle/dashcmd always displays the same fault "P0172".

      I replaced the MAF, dip stick, fuel cap and PCV.

      I eventually got VCDS and it looks like it is showing a different error code but kind of the same thing "too rich condition"

      Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-CDL.clb
      Control Module Part Number: 8P0 907 115 AP HW: 8P0 907 115 B
      Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0010
      Software Coding: 0103000C1C0F0160
      Work Shop Code: WSC 14129 411 435910
      1 Fault Found:

      008568 - Bank 1; System Too Rich off Idle
      P2178 - 002 -
      Freeze Frame:
      Fault Status: 01100010
      Fault Priority: 2
      Fault Frequency: 3
      Reset counter: 255
      Time Indication: 0
      Date: 2020.03.01
      Time: 13:40:16

      Freeze Frame:
      RPM: 1771 /min
      Load: 47.0 %
      Speed: 22.0 km/h
      Temperature: 63.0°C
      Temperature: 22.0°C
      Absolute Pres.: 970.0 mbar
      Voltage: 14.097 V


      Readiness: 0000 0000


      ---
      When I look at Group 32 and 33 with this fault logged I see;

      Address 01: Engine (8P0 907 115 AP)

      16:23:58 Group 032: Lambda Control (Mixture Adaptation)
      5.3 % Adaptation (Idle) Bank 1 Sensor 1
      -23.0 % Adaptation (Partial) Bank 1 Sensor 1



      16:23:58 Group 033: Lambda Control
      -2.7 % Lambda Control Bank 1 Sensor 1
      1.48 V Sensor Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 1


      - Obviously the -23% is the cause for the fault.

      Question 1:
      Why is this a different code to the bluetooth dongle I use?

      Question 2:
      I ran a measure on groups 32 and 33.
      I reset all error codes to return fuel trims to 0.
      On group 32 it's 0% and 0%
      On Idle group 33 - short term fuel trim flucuates between -2% and 2%.
      From what I understand that's perfect?
      My research suggests that a VAC leak is only evident on idle and would show up on this idle test. I seen the effect of the dip stick test on youtube but it seems my car has no such vac leak..

      Question 3:
      When I rev the car in nuetral whilst meansuring groups 32 and 33 I noticed that short term fuel (in group 33) jumps upto -15%. Is this normal behaviour ?

      Question 4:
      I do not know if my car is remapped but I ran a quick test, I used 3 gear and set box to manual.
      I get MAF readings like;
      Group C: 002
      Engine Speed Engine Load Injection Timing Mass Air Flow
      TIME (G28) Sensor (G70)
      STAMP /min % ms g/s
      17.97 4320 146.6 4.08 134.31
      18.33 4720 143.6 4.08 143.47
      18.69 5120 139.1 4.08 150.11
      19.03 5480 142.1 4.34 165.22
      19.41 5840 145.1 4.34 181.47
      19.77 6200 145.9 4.34 196.58
      20.11 6560 152.6 4.59 217.67
      20.49 5080 174.4 4.34 212.11
      20.85 5160 191.7 6.12 221.47
      21.24 5440 191.7 6.12 230.22
      21.62 5680 191.7 5.87 237.33
      21.96 5920 191 5.61 240
      22.33 6160 184.2 5.61 241.31
      22.69 6360 178.9 5.36 243.67
      23.02 6600 173.7 5.36 244
      23.39 5880 172.9 4.34 219.22
      23.74 5080 176.7 5.61 194.53
      24.11 5080 15.8 0.51 10.81


      I believe if you take highest figure and devide by 0.8 it gives rough estimate of BHP? so 244/0.8 = 305bhp ? That would indicate a remap?


      Question 5
      Does this look like a boost leak or is it normal boost?

      Group C: 115
      Engine Speed Engine Load Boost Pressure Boost Pressure
      TIME (G28) (specified) (actual)
      STAMP /min % mbar mbar
      43.52 1600 31.6 500 990
      43.87 1680 27.8 440 990
      47.97 1960 65.4 1040 1000
      48.08 2040 69.2 1060 1010
      48.19 2080 74.4 1090 1020
      48.32 2120 78.9 1140 1040
      48.44 2200 83.5 1290 1060
      48.55 2240 87.2 1520 1080
      48.66 2240 93.2 1590 1090
      48.77 1920 104.5 1450 1120
      48.89 1960 108.3 1440 1150
      49 1920 111.3 1430 1170
      49.12 1920 113.5 1430 1190
      49.22 1920 115 1420 1190
      49.33 1960 115.8 1450 1210
      49.46 2000 118 1460 1220
      49.56 2040 119.5 1510 1230
      49.68 2120 121.8 1550 1250
      49.78 2160 124.8 1590 1260
      49.91 2200 127.1 1650 1290
      50.05 2280 131.6 1660 1320
      50.18 2320 133.8 1650 1350
      50.29 2400 136.1 1620 1370
      50.41 2440 139.8 1600 1400
      50.54 2480 133.1 1480 1430
      50.67 2600 118.8 1220 1460
      50.79 2600 103 1140 1480
      50.91 2680 91.7 1000 1410



      164.49 2040 109.8 1730 1150
      164.6 2160 112.8 2000 1170
      164.73 2360 115.8 2120 1210
      164.85 2600 118.8 2220 1250
      164.99 2920 125.6 2230 1320
      165.1 3040 135.3 2230 1380
      165.23 3360 147.4 2240 1490
      165.35 3600 163.9 2230 1630
      165.48 3800 181.2 2210 1790
      165.6 4000 191.7 2230 1960
      165.72 4280 191.7 2230 2020
      165.82 4520 191.7 2230 2040
      165.93 4560 191.7 2240 2090
      166.05 4760 191.7 2250 2120
      166.2 4920 191.7 2250 2120
      166.32 5080 191.7 2260 2120
      166.43 5240 191.7 2260 2100
      166.54 5400 191.7 2260 2080
      166.66 5520 167.7 1450 1920
      166.8 5600 118.8 870 1790
      166.91 5640 60.9 620 1790
      167.03 5640 31.6 490 1420
      167.15 5680 23.3 360 1330



      Question 6
      From all of the above what would you suggest? The car smells like it's running rich, the MPG isn't great i'm getting roughly 30 miles to £10 of fuel around the city... When I reset codes the car pulls like an absolute train - it's very quick! but then this limp code ruins everything! If I had a boost leak I would expect lesser performance.. Does it sound like an O2 sensor?

      I have a warranty for "non wear and tear" parts only...

      Please help

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    3. Member ROH ECHT's Avatar
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      `07 gti K04'd
      03-02-2020 02:03 PM #2
      Yes, the code is because of the -23% fuel trim off idle. That means it is reducing fuel by 23% due to reports from the B1S1 O2 to the ECM.

      This most often turns out to be a failed throttle body(TB). You can keep resetting it, but when the B1S1 O2 sensor detects and reports...it kicks right back into safe/limp mode. Have you looked at the TB data? Have you checked to see if it will align the TB? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zrmhDw_v7Y)

      There's more that could be responsible...but I would begin there with checking the TB.
      Then the catalyst...and perhaps the hpfp because of the fuel regulator.

      May be leaking injectors, so looking at the rail pressure data may show you something...but I doubt it, given there are no unable to maintain rail pressure codes.

      Boost looks normal. Typical to be 0.1 bar below specified when cooler.

      Mass air and boost both indicate it is tuned. Mass air also indicates the MAF is likely in good shape, but you may want to pull it and check for oil coating it if you use an oiled filter.
      Last edited by ROH ECHT; 03-02-2020 at 09:00 PM.
      K04 PLAY...`07 GTI/GIAC K04 & DSG Tunes/AWE DV/AUTOTECH HPFP/TORQBYTE PM3/TTRS LPFP/S3 INJ's&fmic/RS4 fprv/FORGE fmTc, WGA & T-B HOSE/TECH.TUNING TB/BSH Eng.&Trans MOUNT's/NSP BOOST GAGE/AP Lite-PULLEY/NEUS. P-FLO&BOOST PIPES/13.2"BBK/BILSTEIN B8 DAMPERS/W.A.L.K./H&R SS SPRINGS+F&R ARB's/TSW 8X18 NURB's...ZOOM DIS! 2007 Volkswagen GTI : 12.823 @ 112.050 MPH

    4. 03-03-2020 06:17 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by ROH ECHT View Post
      Yes, the code is because of the -23% fuel trim off idle. That means it is reducing fuel by 23% due to reports from the B1S1 O2 to the ECM.

      This most often turns out to be a failed throttle body(TB). You can keep resetting it, but when the B1S1 O2 sensor detects and reports...it kicks right back into safe/limp mode. Have you looked at the TB data? Have you checked to see if it will align the TB?

      There's more that could be responsible...but I would begin there with checking the TB.
      Then the catalyst...and perhaps the hpfp because of the fuel regulator.

      Mass air and boost both indicate it is tuned. Mass air also indicates the MAF is likely in good shape, but you may want to pull it and check for oil coating it if you use an oiled filter.
      Thanks for the reply - i'll go down the route of the Throttle Body thanks for suggesting that.
      I use standard air filter as i was always concerned about contamination from those oil filters!

      Do you recommend doing the O2 sensor test? I seen there is a procedure for doing this with VCDS.

      Will report back after my tests.

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    6. Member ROH ECHT's Avatar
      Join Date
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      `07 gti K04'd
      03-05-2020 12:24 AM #4
      Do both the throttle body and B1S1 O2.
      K04 PLAY...`07 GTI/GIAC K04 & DSG Tunes/AWE DV/AUTOTECH HPFP/TORQBYTE PM3/TTRS LPFP/S3 INJ's&fmic/RS4 fprv/FORGE fmTc, WGA & T-B HOSE/TECH.TUNING TB/BSH Eng.&Trans MOUNT's/NSP BOOST GAGE/AP Lite-PULLEY/NEUS. P-FLO&BOOST PIPES/13.2"BBK/BILSTEIN B8 DAMPERS/W.A.L.K./H&R SS SPRINGS+F&R ARB's/TSW 8X18 NURB's...ZOOM DIS! 2007 Volkswagen GTI : 12.823 @ 112.050 MPH

    7. 03-26-2020 10:56 AM #5
      Hello, just to update this I found the issue.
      Unfortuantely I ruled out a boost leak by doing a vcds test of requested + actual boost pressure.
      Because I was getting the requested I *ASSUMED* it wasn't possible to have a boost leak...

      As this issue became worse under full load I should have known it must have been some boost leak. Weirdly I never heard anything...

      There you have it, if you get this fault it's most likely you have a boost leak...

      I'm no master mechanic but I was able to replace this pipe, the charge pipe and demuffler kit (i didn't want demuffler kit but it's the only way to buy this part after market) in the space of 3 hours using jack stands.

      Very happy to have the car performing as normal again. Thanks for your input guys!

    8. 03-26-2020 10:57 AM #6
      cannot post images until i make one more post

      here you go
      https://imgur.com/a/rAykS4x

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