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    Thread: Non-negotiating Car Dealers - Your Thoughts?

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      03-23-2020 09:10 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by Pnuu View Post
      Question for OP:

      For the car you want to buy, what's the actual price at your local two dealers? What's the actual price at the next two or three closest dealers?
      $750 off in town, looked at a couple dealers in one state east and one state south and it was within a few bucks, if not the same.

      Quote Originally Posted by Travis Grundke View Post
      What's funny about this whole discussion is that this is essentially what would happen if the marketplace did exactly what everyone on the internet asks for: cut out dealerships and let people buy cars directly from the manufacturer.

      Pro tip: we'll *all* pay higher prices.

      You're paying for the convenience of not having to negotiate and "feeling better" that everyone pays the same.
      Right, I'm not sure I like this model either. BUT - at least it really is no BS. On the other hand, you can walk into a dealer, have everything lined up and agreed upon beforehand, and you can still end up sitting there for 2-3 hours, for any and every eyerollable reason.

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      03-23-2020 09:16 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
      Around here it's the hyundai and kia dealers colluding with each other to give everyone the hard sell, minimal discount approach. But the mazda dealers are desperate. You could get at least 10% off. How open are you to having something shipped?
      I'd be more willing to travel myself as opposed to shipping up here if the discount was solid enough for traveling to still be worth it. Always good to look the car over first. Can at least make a fun trip out of it then.

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      03-23-2020 09:27 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post

      Right, I'm not sure I like this model either. BUT - at least it really is no BS. On the other hand, you can walk into a dealer, have everything lined up and agreed upon beforehand, and you can still end up sitting there for 2-3 hours, for any and every eyerollable reason.
      I'm a people person, I really am, but as a salesperson, I really don't want you there any longer than you have to be. I don't want to sit and shoot the breeze with you if I'm being totally transparent. I want to sell you a car you're excited about and get you to my F&I guy so you can do your business and get out.

      But sometimes, your particular circumstance prevents you from being as quick as you'd like to be. Whether it be your finances, or other people in front of you in the F&I office, or a lender who wants some stips from you, those things take time. My favorite customers are the one who know what they want and know what they want to pay. I can tell you within 10 minutes of being there if we can do business and if there's no one in front you, I can probably get you financed and papers signed within an hour of coming in the door. That's if everything works the way its supposed to.

      Sometimes, Detail takes a little longer (our detail center is off-site), or getting fuel takes too much time, or something is required in the "we-owe" that takes time.

      Here's some tips to shorten your time at the dealer.

      Let the dealer know when you're coming to have the car ready for you.
      Either have your financing arranged or send your credit app online so they can already give you the rate you want. Let them know what you want to pay and how you want to pay for it.
      If you have a trade, expect it to take a little longer.
      Come in on Tuesday morning or whatever day is slowest. You're more likely to get in the finance office sooner.

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    5. Member Pnuu's Avatar
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      03-23-2020 09:58 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
      $750 off in town, looked at a couple dealers in one state east and one state south and it was within a few bucks, if not the same.
      So from the sound of that, in your region this car is in demand to the point that no dealer NEEDS to negotiate beyond $750 off MSRP. And why should they? If they have a not unlimited number of cars and plenty of buyers lined up to pay that price in the near future they would much rather wait until those buyers come in to shop.

      It sounds like you either need to wait for the car you want to come down in price (lower demand), or travel to a region where the car is cheaper. As an example that was mentioned somewhere else, good luck getting a deal under MSRP on a new Hybrid Rav4 anywhere, and especially in the PNW, right now. With buyers lined up to pay MSRP there is no reason to expect a deal.

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      03-23-2020 10:14 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
      $750 off in town, looked at a couple dealers in one state east and one state south and it was within a few bucks, if not the same.



      Right, I'm not sure I like this model either. BUT - at least it really is no BS. On the other hand, you can walk into a dealer, have everything lined up and agreed upon beforehand, and you can still end up sitting there for 2-3 hours, for any and every eyerollable reason.
      If saving your time is worthwhile, we got to Walser Mazda Burnsville at 12:15 to test drive our Alltrack, and had left the dealership fully purchased with an interest rate that beat our credit union by 2pm. 45 minutes of that time was spent test driving and thoroughly examining the body panels and doors of the car for any signs of undisclosed bodywork.

      Also, on the previous page re: sales guy taking a dump after "running the offer to the manager"...hands down my favorite past time with annoying customers back when I did sales.

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      03-23-2020 10:28 PM #56
      What does Mazda think they are? Amati?

      There is also a middle man service offered by Costco to buy cars as well

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      03-23-2020 10:48 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by Pnuu View Post
      So from the sound of that, in your region this car is in demand to the point that no dealer NEEDS to negotiate beyond $750 off MSRP. And why should they? If they have a not unlimited number of cars and plenty of buyers lined up to pay that price in the near future they would much rather wait until those buyers come in to shop.

      It sounds like you either need to wait for the car you want to come down in price (lower demand), or travel to a region where the car is cheaper. As an example that was mentioned somewhere else, good luck getting a deal under MSRP on a new Hybrid Rav4 anywhere, and especially in the PNW, right now. With buyers lined up to pay MSRP there is no reason to expect a deal.
      True, but they still have 2019s sitting around, on offer for $3500 off that they aren't moving, so it doesn't seem they have people around the block lined up to buy, either. Figure 2021s are right around the corner, close enough so much so that the other car I'm looking at is a special order and 2020 order banks are already closed, and I've been offered to change an existing 2021 order already in the system. So those 2019s are already depreciating past that discount amount no doubt. I get offering less of a discount on a 2020 if you still have 2019s hanging around, but 2019s should really be gone at this point, smack in the middle of the 2020 model year with 2021s around the corner. Just tells me people aren't falling over themselves for them as much as you would think.

      Meanwhile CX-5 diesels are $7k+ off at these same dealers, go figure. Either taking a decent loss (possibly), or they baked a ton of margin into the MSRP, or probably some middleground of each.

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      03-23-2020 11:50 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
      I'd be more willing to travel myself as opposed to shipping up here if the discount was solid enough for traveling to still be worth it. Always good to look the car over first. Can at least make a fun trip out of it then.
      Wait. If you can get a really good deal, why not travel to the right location and pick it up? I mean you still get to inspect the car, drive it around and all that before you buy it.
      Back in 2005 I traveled from LA to Berkley (about 400 miles) to get a Jetta wagon for a bit more than $3k discount over the local dealer. It took a weekend, but the money I saved and the fun drive was killer. I remember it to this day.
      I am dead serious. You are free to spend your money wherever you want.

    10. Member BlackMiata's Avatar
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      03-23-2020 11:58 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by BGTI1 View Post
      Wait. If you can get a really good deal, why not travel to the right location and pick it up? I mean you still get to inspect the car, drive it around and all that before you buy it.
      Back in 2005 I traveled from LA to Berkley (about 400 miles) to get a Jetta wagon for a bit more than $3k discount over the local dealer. It took a weekend, but the money I saved and the fun drive was killer. I remember it to this day.
      I am dead serious. You are free to spend your money wherever you want.
      Done it many times myself, but might be a bit difficult at the present moment. Doing a long distance buying trip just adds to the thrill of the hunt, and makes for a unique vacation. Did a 2000 mile trip to get my A3 in 2013, just did a 800 mile trip to get the SQ5.

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      03-24-2020 12:03 AM #60
      Seems good to me. IDGAF. I don't really want to negotiate. I don't get why this is "the system" for cars but not for really anything else in our lives.

      I swore I'd never buy a new car in my life.

      But, 20 years into my car buying career, I ended up buying a 2016 Golf R brand new, in fact got on the waiting list. I didn't want to pay a markup. Dealership I put my reservation down at said "MSRP, no discounts, no markup". fine with me. Invoice was only $1500 less anyway. Few people seemed to manage a discount. I'm not gonna fly halfway across the country, take a couple days to drive home and pay expenses, just to "save" $1500.

      When I sold it a few years later, dealerships were STILL trying to charge a markup. I won't do that on principal, but if others do, whateves.

      Only other new car I've bought was the Tesla. Same deal. Heres the price. Do you want the car or not?

      Seems fair to me. If one dealer in your town doesn't haggle but the other does, save the money by driving across town and haggling.

      If someone has your area "locked up", and you'd have to go halfway across country to save $1000, $2000, $3000, $4000, $5000... only you can decide if that deal and that hassle is worth it to you. If it is, do it. If it isn't, don't.

      Who cares what the Mercedes dealer in town discounts cars for when you're buying a Mazda? They're different cars.

      The one you're buying is either worth the price you have to pay, or it's not.

      Don't want to pay a new car price, don't buy a new car.

      People get hung up about $1000 this way or that as if its the end of the world. Want to save money, don't buy a car at all. Same as folks who drive across town to save 5 cents a gallon. Everyone's got their own situation and their own price threshlds, but the obsession with "whether they haggle or not" is besides the point. Pay the price, or don't.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dravenport View Post
      this thread is a mess, I can't tell if it's full of trolls or idiots and I'm not sure it matters

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      03-24-2020 12:08 AM #61
      I just bought a brand new Corolla hatchback. I spent the week (really in total, about an hour cumulative sending emails) searching inventory, finding what I wanted and contacting anyone within a reasonable driving distance. Now for me, that's a lot wider a net than it is for most people. I was comfortable with a 1000 mile radius. I had my choices already filtered out, so I knew the cars I was inquiring on were supposed to be Blue Flame XSE 6MTs. I didn't care if they had the adaptive light pack or not, and I didn't care about any dealer add ons.

      Sent emails. Automated replies got chucked immediately.

      Dealer A in Atlanta responded with EXACTLY what I was looking for, priced at $X.
      Dealer B in Houston responded that the car they had was technically a used demo, but could offer me a Blizzard White one at $X - $879. I said great. Hold please.
      Dealer C here in Savannah. "TALK TALK TALK TALK TALK, I can come like this much off MSRP, what do you want to pay monthly etc etc" Gone. Didn't bother with them any further.

      Emailed Dealer A back. "I can have this one at $879 off your cost. Can you match?" He matched without hesitation. Could I have pushed for more? Sure. But he matched, I got the color I wanted, got the spoiler for free, and got all the throw in bull**** for free too, all out the door for less than MSRP is. I waited longer for the ass holes in front of me in F&I to finish beating the pulp out of the F&I guy over a few hundred bucks than I did in time put in to finding and agreeing to purchase the car. And then enjoyed a nice 300 mile drive home from Atlanta right in the middle of Coronapocalypse.

      Did I make out with the best deal ever? No. But I made out with a deal that falls on the good side of the True Car graph, and I got it done in less than one total day.

      Point being, I didn't label all of Toyota because some Toyota dealership local to me was not competitively priced. I simply went about my business elsewhere because as was mentioned, the perceived value of the car for me was not a $27,990 car after taxes. I'm not real sure why you're behaving like this is a novel or new thing for anybody. The local Mazda dealerships to you are priced what they are because they seem to not have difficulty selling at least some of them at that price. If they did have trouble selling them at that price, they wouldn't be a dealership.
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      03-24-2020 06:45 AM #62
      We need to remove haggling from the car buying process

    14. Member Travis Grundke's Avatar
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      03-24-2020 07:03 AM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      We need to remove haggling from the car buying process
      I might be mistaken, but isn't that essentially what the OP is complaining about: the dealers won't negotiate off of sticker?

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      03-24-2020 07:40 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      We need to remove haggling from the car buying process
      Nope, doesn't make sense. Do you also want to remove negotiating in real estate, b2b transactions, and consumer to consumer sales? Everyone has the ability to not haggle and pay an asking price, but it doesn't make sense for it to be universally removed.

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      03-24-2020 09:46 AM #65
      I don't mind no-haggle if the price is right, that was the case when I bought my used 4runner at Grappone about 6 years ago. I knew what the SUV was worth and what similar vehicles were selling for elsewhere so I knew I was getting a fair deal.

      Where no-haggle fails is when a dealership has blinders on and prices their cars higher than fair market value. It's just not worth dealing with them in that case. I know not buying local is a hassle but it might be your best bet.

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      03-24-2020 10:11 AM #66
      Bad dealers that do it
      If it's a crappy dealer that does this as a feeble attempt to raise their margins, yeah, I'm out the door immediately. Probably most common with Toyota but other brands do it too as well as a number of used dealers.

      Good dealers that do it
      I actually think this is great--don't get me wrong I'm in business and love to negotiate--but there's some dealers out there that are just so good at what they do, they don't have to compete on price and they know it. If I'm dealing with someone that I know will fight for me on warranty, provide loaners, make time for an appointment, order the car the way I want, etc. etc., then it isn't worth the ~$500 extra I could save to go on to the next one. Rather, this is the type of dealer I'd be going out of my way to do business with. Unfortunately, they're rare.

      Side note
      No haggle doesn't always mean no haggle. I've made offers at no haggle dealerships before; sometimes they're 100% serious, but more often than not you get "Alright let's talk." IME it doesn't hurt to ask so long as you're prepared for the answer to be "no." Always gets me when I read reviews of no haggle dealerships complaining that they wouldn't haggle.

    18. Member Travis Grundke's Avatar
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      03-24-2020 10:24 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      Where no-haggle fails is when a dealership has blinders on and prices their cars higher than fair market value. It's just not worth dealing with them in that case. I know not buying local is a hassle but it might be your best bet.
      No haggle pricing is paying what is on the window sticker. Otherwise, it's a negotiation.

      When TCL and the rest of the internet speaks of "no haggle", that's really what they mean: like buying an iPhone through Apple or a wireless carrier. The price is what the price is.

      Nobody has to haggle over the vast majority of cars on the market: just pay what's on the window sticker.

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      03-24-2020 10:31 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by Travis Grundke View Post
      No haggle pricing is paying what is on the window sticker. Otherwise, it's a negotiation.

      When TCL and the rest of the internet speaks of "no haggle", that's really what they mean: like buying an iPhone through Apple or a wireless carrier. The price is what the price is.

      Nobody has to haggle over the vast majority of cars on the market: just pay what's on the window sticker.
      Plenty of no-haggle dealers will have prices on their website or will offer quotes for prices that aren't in the window though. If I see a GTI on a dealers page for $25500 and the window sticker and/or MSRP says $26750, I don't consider it haggling to ask for the web price. More like clarifying I guess.

      Edit: Just like an iPhone might be $799 but Best Buy puts it in advert for $599.

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      03-24-2020 10:34 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Travis Grundke View Post
      No haggle pricing is paying what is on the window sticker. Otherwise, it's a negotiation.

      When TCL and the rest of the internet speaks of "no haggle", that's really what they mean: like buying an iPhone through Apple or a wireless carrier. The price is what the price is.

      Nobody has to haggle over the vast majority of cars on the market: just pay what's on the window sticker.
      When TCL and the rest of the internet speak of "no haggle" they are talking about places that have a No-negotiation, Set Price on every car, new and used. For the new cars, it is very often NOT the MSRP.

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      03-24-2020 12:10 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      Nope, doesn't make sense. Do you also want to remove negotiating in real estate, b2b transactions, and consumer to consumer sales? Everyone has the ability to not haggle and pay an asking price, but it doesn't make sense for it to be universally removed.
      "You don't have to haggle, just overpay" is a silly argument

      If you pay asking price at a dealership where everyone else haggles, you're overpaying (making up a larger share of their profits/overhead/etc).

      At least in theory, at a no-haggle place, the price is reasonable, given the market, from the outset.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dravenport View Post
      this thread is a mess, I can't tell if it's full of trolls or idiots and I'm not sure it matters

    22. Member Travis Grundke's Avatar
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      03-24-2020 12:27 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      When TCL and the rest of the internet speak of "no haggle" they are talking about places that have a No-negotiation, Set Price on every car, new and used. For the new cars, it is very often NOT the MSRP.
      Which is fine, but most people are interested in "getting the best deal", and that means shopping and negotiating. It's problematic because "the best deal" is relative to each individual buyer.

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      03-24-2020 02:53 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by Travis Grundke View Post
      Which is fine, but most people are interested in "getting the best deal", and that means shopping and negotiating. It's problematic because "the best deal" is relative to each individual buyer.
      That's just it, to me I consider the best value to be one car to another car, not the same car lot to lot. If a Mazda CX-5 ticks all the boxes of features I'm looking for out of a specific automobile at a listed price compared to the competition, that's the satisfaction I'd derive from having bought one. Not that I got the lowest possible price on one.

    24. Member Travis Grundke's Avatar
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      03-24-2020 02:54 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      That's just it, to me I consider the best value to be one car to another car, not the same car lot to lot. If a Mazda CX-5 ticks all the boxes of features I'm looking for out of a specific automobile at a listed price compared to the competition, that's the satisfaction I'd derive from having bought one. Not that I got the lowest possible price on one.
      Interesting. On aggregate, most shoppers pick a brand and model and then haggle on price.

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      03-24-2020 02:56 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Travis Grundke View Post
      Which is fine, but most people are interested in "getting the best deal", and that means shopping and negotiating. It's problematic because "the best deal" is relative to each individual buyer.
      Exactly. And smart negotiators learn your hot button and negotiate around that, and play shell game with the rest of the factors of the deal. It's not just the car business. It's how I negotiate for SaaS and marketing.
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      03-24-2020 03:01 PM #75
      I honestly hate haggling, I still do it but I dont make a production out of it. Like my last car purchase I emailed a couple of fairly close dealers based on their inventory, told them what I want, and what they could offer.

      I also used the Subaru Outback forum to see what the average discount was in my region. Discounts raged from 10% to 15% off MSRP. Ended up getting 12% off MSRP and that was good enough for me so I went in, signed my stuff and was out in 30-40 minutes. All the other number factors in the leasing were already pretty much set for me.

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