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    Thread: 2021 Toyota Venza

    1. Member
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      05-19-2020 12:29 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Stop taking model releases personally. This fills a big gap in Toyota's lineup and frankly could easily replace the Avalon as the brand's flagship IMO.

      Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
      This also just plugs the same model back into the void it left empty.
      It doesn't represent "yet another CUV".

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      05-19-2020 12:32 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      "Intuitive driving experience" probably means it doesn't have some weird shifter that will potentially kill you because of unfamiliarity or strange operating parameters.

      See Anton Yelchin as a bad example of that.
      Toyota definitely needs to be sensitive to that.
      Unintended acceleration (real or otherwise) was a big problem for Toyota and Lexus, and probably had a lot to do with poor ergonomic design decisions.
      I think the second generation Prius had a lot of usage problems with its gear selector, because it was not intuitive to operate.

    4. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      05-19-2020 12:33 PM #53
      This is a far, far better looking car than the first one. I mean, it isn't "ZOMG" sexy, but I never liked the first one at all. This one, while derivative, is at least a clean design, and I don't mind the interior, either. That console/dash interface is weird, but not offensive. Well, unless the way the console penetrates the dash is too blatantly sexual for some. I mean, it's pretty obvious, but whatever.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    5. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      05-19-2020 12:37 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      Toyota definitely needs to be sensitive to that.
      Unintended acceleration (real or otherwise) was a big problem for Toyota and Lexus, and probably had a lot to do with poor ergonomic design decisions.
      I think the second generation Prius had a lot of usage problems with its gear selector, because it was not intuitive to operate.
      They definitely had some kind of fundamental issue there, not just interference with floor mats. The cop in the Lexus that died with his family was a trained officer, but the runaway scenario was real, the brakes didn't kill the throttle, the shifter didn't do anything, and simply hitting the stop button did nothing as well. This doesn't even enter into whether it was an interference with the pedal or a software issue.

      I saw a video on youtube of a guy with a screaming engine. He had it happen several times and when he'd restart it the problem was gone, so the dealer couldn't find anything. It happened to him on the freeway, so he was able to accelerate, then slow it down, accelerate, slow it down... until he got to the dealership. He left it running with the engine screaming and it's on camera where they came out and couldn't see a problem.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      05-19-2020 12:49 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      They definitely had some kind of fundamental issue there, not just interference with floor mats. The cop in the Lexus that died with his family was a trained officer, but the runaway scenario was real, the brakes didn't kill the throttle, the shifter didn't do anything, and simply hitting the stop button did nothing as well. This doesn't even enter into whether it was an interference with the pedal or a software issue.

      I saw a video on youtube of a guy with a screaming engine. He had it happen several times and when he'd restart it the problem was gone, so the dealer couldn't find anything. It happened to him on the freeway, so he was able to accelerate, then slow it down, accelerate, slow it down... until he got to the dealership. He left it running with the engine screaming and it's on camera where they came out and couldn't see a problem.
      That's what scares me about these through the road AWD systems, like the Venza has.
      The nightmare scenario would be killing the ICE main engine, in a runaway situation, but the electric motor is still pushing the car along at speed.

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      05-19-2020 01:52 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      That's what scares me about these through the road AWD systems, like the Venza has.
      The nightmare scenario would be killing the ICE main engine, in a runaway situation, but the electric motor is still pushing the car along at speed.
      Hybrids have been in play for over 2 decades w/no such instances reported, at least that I know of. I wouldn't worry about it.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      05-19-2020 02:00 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      This also just plugs the same model back into the void it left empty.
      It doesn't represent "yet another CUV".
      Yep.... Ford, Nissan, Hyundai, Honda and Chevrolet all have some version of this crossover. There's def precedent. If I had to pick between this or an open diff FWD sedan I'm going with this every time. If a car's not gonna be fun to drive it might as well be as practical as possible.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

    9. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      05-19-2020 02:01 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by GarageBoy View Post
      Is this above or below highlander?
      Below

      Harrier or Venza is a less chunky looking RAV4.

      Think of Venza and RAV4 in the same way as Ford Escape and Bronco Sport - same CUV but two different bodies - one softer and one more butch.

    10. 05-19-2020 02:03 PM #59
      I have to say I kinda like it, rear looks Jaguarish in a good way

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      05-19-2020 02:16 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Stop taking model releases personally. This fills a big gap in Toyota's lineup and frankly could easily replace the Avalon as the brand's flagship IMO.

      Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
      CTK- Could you elaborate why you think this is a big gap filled? Would you consider this to replace your MKX?

      I think it makes sense to try here because it's a rebadge and it looks pretty great to my eyes.

      However, my feeling is that mainstream brand CUV buyers want the combo of SUV looks, car-like handling, enough power, space efficiency, fuel efficiency, basic safety features/Apple Carplay, and low prices. The RAV4 Hybrid nails that formula while the Venza doesn't gain any space, power, or efficiency but adds ~20% cost, more mature wagon-like styling (Eww Americans no-likey wagons), an improved cabin that may or not be appreciated by potential buyers, and new tech that is unknown in quality of execution.

      Also, the RAV4 refresh coming next year may replicate much of the cabin and tech, and the Prime is showing up with big power. I don't know, it will be interesting to see how the public takes to this thing. How car-like can mainstream crossovers get again before people go the other way like they did when the OG Venza, OG Pacifica, Crosstour etc didn't survive.

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      05-19-2020 02:48 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      That's what scares me about these through the road AWD systems, like the Venza has.
      The nightmare scenario would be killing the ICE main engine, in a runaway situation, but the electric motor is still pushing the car along at speed.
      It wasn't that, it was computer controlled throttles. Toyota's version apparently had a simple multi-position potentiometer telling the computer what position the throttle was in with no backup. Apparently some (most? all?) competitors use dual (multiple?) lines of code and one counts up while one counts down, allowing the computer to average the two.

      Toyota employed NASA to find the problem, but they never did. This does not mean it doesn't exist, it means they couldn't find it, likely because it was lost in the code and eluded them because it only happens so rarely. With so many cars the problem came up in the real world.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      05-19-2020 03:15 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      CTK- Could you elaborate why you think this is a big gap filled? Would you consider this to replace your MKX?

      I think it makes sense to try here because it's a rebadge and it looks pretty great to my eyes.

      However, my feeling is that mainstream brand CUV buyers want the combo of SUV looks, car-like handling, enough power, space efficiency, fuel efficiency, basic safety features/Apple Carplay, and low prices. The RAV4 Hybrid nails that formula while the Venza doesn't gain any space, power, or efficiency but adds ~20% cost, more mature wagon-like styling (Eww Americans no-likey wagons), an improved cabin that may or not be appreciated by potential buyers, and new tech that is unknown in quality of execution.

      Also, the RAV4 refresh coming next year may replicate much of the cabin and tech, and the Prime is showing up with big power. I don't know, it will be interesting to see how the public takes to this thing. How car-like can mainstream crossovers get again before people go the other way like they did when the OG Venza, OG Pacifica, Crosstour etc didn't survive.
      Weird, I thought I replied to this. Anyway, my big beefs with the RAV4 are legroom, looks, lack of a pano roof and power. So the Venza addresses 3 out of the 4. If I had to choose between the Venza and RAV4 I'd go with the Venza every time. But for me the MKX is borderline with its performance, and with us doing a couple of trips to the mountains every year I'd want something with a little more power- preferably turbocharged. Only way this will be a real replacement contender is if they make a Prime version with the 306HP powertrain. Though to be frank wifey is looking to work from home soon, so we will prob be stuck with the damn MKX for a long time.
      Last edited by CTK; 05-19-2020 at 03:19 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      05-19-2020 03:23 PM #63
      I liked the way the previous version looked but this just looks like a rebadged Lexus, who happen to make some of the ugliest vehicles on the road. Will be interested to see if they make a TRD version maybe borrowing the motor from the supra, but thats probably just a dream.

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      05-19-2020 03:34 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Anyway, my big beefs with the RAV4 are legroom, looks, lack of a pano roof and power. So the Venza addresses 3 out of the 4. If I had to choose between the Venza and RAV4 I'd go with the Venza every time.
      FYI- The Venza has the same 37.8" rear legroom as the RAV4 Hybrid, and you can get a pano roof in the RAV4 Hybrid.

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      05-19-2020 03:37 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      FYI- The Venza has the same 37.8" rear legroom as the RAV4 Hybrid, and you can get a pano roof in the RAV4 Hybrid.
      I'm seeing 39.1", but even with the pano roof I couldn't look at the RAV4 every day.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      05-19-2020 04:08 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboREX View Post
      I liked the way the previous version looked but this just looks like a rebadged Lexus, who happen to make some of the ugliest vehicles on the road. Will be interested to see if they make a TRD version maybe borrowing the motor from the supra, but thats probably just a dream.
      I like it because it fixes everything I hate about Lexus styling (front end, and overly busy D-pillars).
      It is quite a clean design, overall.

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      05-19-2020 04:11 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Hybrids have been in play for over 2 decades w/no such instances reported, at least that I know of. I wouldn't worry about it.
      I don't think all hybrids use "through the road" AWD systems, unless I am wrong.
      I think the current RAV4 Hybrid and AWD Prius are the first hybrids to employ this technology.

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      05-19-2020 04:17 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by kraut_pauer79 View Post
      That center stack design is a bit interesting...but thank goodness it looks like they're getting with the program offering an attractive and competitive infotainment screen with Carplay.

      A slightly bigger, more stylish RAV4 Hybrid - This will be another big nail in the Camry's coffin.
      I doubt the Camry is going anywhere anytime soon. CUVs are a fad, and like all fads they die out and people get bored of them. Watch, people are going to start missing the lower driving positions of sedans more and more, and are going to get tired of CUVs again, just as they grew tired of sedans. At least where I live, the Accord and Camry are going strong. Now the Altima..that I can see dying, and the larger Avalons and whatever else.
      Quote Originally Posted by KevinC View Post

      If the next GTI has over 300 hp off the showroom floor, I'll eat my airedale.

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      05-19-2020 04:31 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      I doubt the Camry is going anywhere anytime soon. CUVs are a fad, and like all fads they die out and people get bored of them. Watch, people are going to start missing the lower driving positions of sedans more and more, and are going to get tired of CUVs again, just as they grew tired of sedans. At least where I live, the Accord and Camry are going strong. Now the Altima..that I can see dying, and the larger Avalons and whatever else.
      People have been saying that for 20+ years now. CUVs are an extension of the SUV form factor, which basically goes back to the beginning of the automobile.
      If we still have Chevy Suburbans, Jeep Wranglers, and Land Rover Defenders, we will still have their car-based CUV cousins for the foreseeable future.
      The coming wave of electric vehicles will only further embed this bodystyle.

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      05-19-2020 04:34 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      I doubt the Camry is going anywhere anytime soon. CUVs are a fad, and like all fads they die out and people get bored of them. Watch, people are going to start missing the lower driving positions of sedans more and more, and are going to get tired of CUVs again, just as they grew tired of sedans. At least where I live, the Accord and Camry are going strong. Now the Altima..that I can see dying, and the larger Avalons and whatever else.
      Don't confuse your desire for CUVs to go away as actual market trends. If anything CUVs are a return to the high riding, function over form pre-war cars. The average person doesn't give a **** about lower driving position or driving dynamics. Plus in Europe crossovers are getting more popular as they are much more space efficient. So the sedan will only become more and more fringe.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      05-19-2020 04:36 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      Below

      Harrier or Venza is a less chunky looking RAV4.

      Think of Venza and RAV4 in the same way as Ford Escape and Bronco Sport - same CUV but two different bodies - one softer and one more butch.
      I thought of that too, but I feel like if you are trying to increase the volume/ATPs between the two together, it works better for the more expensive model to be the off-roader styled one.

      While a lot of folks here and myself prefer the looks of the Venza over the FauxRunner, I actually think the FauxRunner is the exact look the majority buyers are looking for, so the traditional RAV4 pricing made them a home run.

      Now you are trying to convince people to pay thousands more for the more subdued, wagon-y one, which could be a tough sell.

      It's interesting to me to imagine if they did the reverse- launch this Harrier as the 2019 North American RAV4 starting at ~$25k with NA 2.5L and hybrid option, and then launch what we know as the actual RAV4 Hybrid and Prime as "2021 Butch Off-road-looking Hybrid-only CUV" with 219 hp and 300+ hp Prime powertrains. What would make more money?

    23. 05-19-2020 05:54 PM #72
      Some people should bear in mind that while it is a rebadged Harrier, that doesn't mean it's exactly a word for word rebadged RAV4. TNGA-K being modular allows for multiple vehicles to utilize it.

      I think the RX needs to pass the baton to NX and grow bigger as a RWD crossover, directly competing with X5 and GLE.

      Quote Originally Posted by vb22 View Post
      2nd gen NX will start production in 2022.

      https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...anada-in-2022/
      https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/lexus/27959013.html

      On a similar note, Lexus dealers were mad that Mirai wasn't rebadged as a Lexus for the US. (Something to fill the spot left by the GS?)

      Not accurate, only in the case of COVID. Job 1 is via Japan, followed by Cambridge in 2022. I had announced back in 2017, that the next NX would enter production at TMMC and Venza would return via the Harrier.

      My older sister who has an LC 500 convertible on order, owns an RX450h and NX300h on both sides of the ocean, saw the next generation NX at a consumer clinic last year. It's apparently jam packed with a lot of new Lexus tech, despite being somewhat entry level.

      As for the GS and Mirai, where did you hear that from? Motor1 reported that in February, from my private email of incoming product and it made its way to other sites. They took me out of context and mentioned Lexus dealers.

      It was actually Toyota dealers at a Fall 2019 conference, who expressed astonishment at the lofty approach for 2021 Mirai and questioned why it wasn't being sold as a Lexus GS or similar sized vehicle? (It's a hard sell above $60k next to a Corolla.)

      Well, as we recall that was the 300B effort 2020 GS, which died 3.5 years ago upon scheduled design freeze and formal program approval. Up until that point, it was mostly pre-development from inauguration of 300B in 2014 to suspension in 2016. Designers had finished the general design and the engineers had cubed it, only to be told it would no longer go into production 30 months later.

      If Lexus dealers are now commenting on that as of now, I can believe it, but they had no lick of an idea about the Mirai-GS connection prior to Toyota Plano staff mentioning it to a few and passing it along to me.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      Yes, that's a crossover. No benchmarking involved, as lead times are a thing. MY 2020 vs MY 2021 is too negligible.

      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      Wait a minute; I thought that the Japanese Harrier was the equivalent of our Lexus RX?
      Not for the past 11 years...

      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      I think this is a great looking and logical vehicle (rather than sexy and impulsive).
      It plays the role of Toyota's Edge nicely to the Highlander's Explorer.
      Toyota has made it much more of a CUV now, versus the old Venza being more of tall roofed hatchback sedan.

      As someone else said earlier, this will probably eat into the Camry's sales, but will definitely spell the end for the Avalon.
      Excellent point in second sentence, but this should've been a hybrid V6. Toyota is getting awfully lazy investing in V6 hybrids, which could've made the proposition over both RAV4 Hybrid and Prime worthwhile.

      Quote Originally Posted by vb22 View Post
      A rebadge version of the JDM Harrier.

      New 2021 Toyota Harrier Is A Good Looking RAV4-Based SUV You Can Only Have In Japan
      https://www.carscoops.com/2020/04/ja...d-powertrains/



      Funny thing is I hinted at this a few years ago, but had hoped some good distance was put between this and the RAV4, 2022 NX, and 2023 RX. Next generation RX should've just gone RWD, as Lexus is out of L-nonmenclature trademarks to use on a flagship crossover. LQ was just a Toyota concept in Tokyo.

      Why not make RX a larger, RWD crossover and let 2022 NX take its place as bread and butter 5-seater on midsize GA-K architecture?

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      05-19-2020 07:43 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      I thought of that too, but I feel like if you are trying to increase the volume/ATPs between the two together, it works better for the more expensive model to be the off-roader styled one.

      While a lot of folks here and myself prefer the looks of the Venza over the FauxRunner, I actually think the FauxRunner is the exact look the majority buyers are looking for, so the traditional RAV4 pricing made them a home run.

      Now you are trying to convince people to pay thousands more for the more subdued, wagon-y one, which could be a tough sell.

      It's interesting to me to imagine if they did the reverse- launch this Harrier as the 2019 North American RAV4 starting at ~$25k with NA 2.5L and hybrid option, and then launch what we know as the actual RAV4 Hybrid and Prime as "2021 Butch Off-road-looking Hybrid-only CUV" with 219 hp and 300+ hp Prime powertrains. What would make more money?
      Well, you are describing Ford's plan with Bronco Sport, which is the more expensive off-roady version launching later with standard AWD. We'll see if Ford or Toyota has the right call. Honestly, this segment is growing so fast, I think both strategy is going to work out pretty well.

      Another example of this is going to be return of Buick Envision vs. GMC Terrain... same basic CUV but two different flavors in the same show room.

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      05-19-2020 08:43 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Automaker1 View Post
      Excellent point in second sentence, but this should've been a hybrid V6. Toyota is getting awfully lazy investing in V6 hybrids, which could've made the proposition over both RAV4 Hybrid and Prime worthwhile.
      The V6 hybrid system in the LC/LS actually looks really good. I think Toyota might be drawing a line in the sand and reserving the V6 hybrids for Lexus. I hope the next NX gets a power boost with both of its powerplants as well. A hybrid built around the 2.0T would be enough.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      05-19-2020 09:14 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      and you can get a pano roof in the RAV4 Hybrid.
      Why would you want a heavy oven attached to the roof of your vehicle?
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
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