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    View Poll Results: Monsieur T-C-L CEO, how WOOD you save Renault?

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    16. You may not vote on this poll
    • Oui, sell it to Peugeot

      0 0%
    • Non. Declare Bankruptcy and ride into the sunset

      4 25.00%
    • Divorce Nissan and sell Dacia to China!

      5 31.25%
    • Bring Renault models as rebadged Nissan to US!

      4 25.00%
    • I have another way we can save Renault...

      3 18.75%
    Results 1 to 17 of 17

    Thread: First Nissan, and now Renault could 'disappear' without French government help...

    1. Member Uber Wagon's Avatar
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      05-22-2020 08:00 PM #1



      France's finance minister, Bruno Le Maire, said Friday that the carmaker is in "serious financial difficulty."
      "Renault can disappear," he told Europe 1 radio.
      The company delivered its worst financial performance in a decade in 2019 and the pandemic has piled on the pressure.
      Carmakers are contending with a slump in demand for vehicles and huge disruption to their operations, as measures to curb the pandemic shut down factories and kept customers at home. Renault ceased production at its 12 facilities in France in the middle of March, resuming operations at most plants only this month.

      Le Maire's comments come amid speculation in French newspapers that Renault (RNLSY) could be preparing to close several manufacturing locations in France, including its flagship factory at Flins, north of Paris.
      "Flins must not close. This is the position of the government and the state shareholder, " Le Maire said.

      The French government and Japan's Nissan (NSANF) are Renault's largest shareholders, each owning a 15% stake in the company. The government is currently negotiating the terms of a €5 billion ($5.4 billion) loan for Renault, which Le Maire has not yet signed off on.
      "We sign when we know what Renault's strategy is," Le Maire said. The company's plans must include a transition to more eco-friendly vehicles. "We want Renault to be more productive and to produce even more of its vehicles, particularly electric, in France," he added. Renault is expected to publish details of a cost reduction plan on May 29.
      Nissan, which is part of an alliance with Renault and Mitsubishi, is also expected to reveal details of a major overhaul of its business next week. Japanese media reported Friday that it could announce the loss of 20,000 jobs.
      Renault and Nissan have been rocked by fallout from the scandal involving their former chairman Carlos Ghosn, who fled Japan in December where he was awaiting trial on charges of financial misconduct. Two men accused of helping to smuggle him out the country were arrested this week in the United States.
      Fiat Chrysler (FCAU) walked away from a proposed merger with Renault last year, after the French government dragged its feet on the deal, which would have created the world's third largest carmaker behind Volkswagen (VLKAF) and Toyota (TM). The deal would have given Renault much-needed scale to compete in the race for electric vehicles. Fiat Chrysler agreed a merger with Peugeot owner PSA Group (PUGOY) instead.
      https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/n...rench-minister

      Last edited by Uber Wagon; 05-22-2020 at 08:12 PM.
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    3. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      05-22-2020 08:03 PM #2
      This but all confirms their F1 team is done too. Not that it's as relevant as the rest of the company going under, but it's something that's been rumored for a few months now.

    4. Senior Member Lwize's Avatar
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      05-22-2020 08:07 PM #3
      I hope this isn't the end.

      I have a soft spot for Dacia Dusters.

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      05-22-2020 08:26 PM #4
      I put 'Declare Bankruptcy and ride it out...' but I don't think that means sunset necessarily. Chapter 11 has proven quite survivable for big industries--see Delta, United, American Airlines. GM probably doesn't count, but if we need a huge success story, Marvel went bankrupt in '96 and they're absolutely wrecking it today.

      I don't know what the EU equivalent "Restructuring Directive" is like compared to Chapter 11, but in the case of Renault, I think they could batten down the hatches and come out stronger in 5+ years.

    6. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      05-22-2020 08:41 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by ghost03 View Post
      I put 'Declare Bankruptcy and ride it out...' but I don't think that means sunset necessarily. Chapter 11 has proven quite survivable for big industries--see Delta, United, American Airlines. GM probably doesn't count, but if we need a huge success story, Marvel went bankrupt in '96 and they're absolutely wrecking it today.

      I don't know what the EU equivalent "Restructuring Directive" is like compared to Chapter 11, but in the case of Renault, I think they could batten down the hatches and come out stronger in 5+ years.
      In France, the equivalent is "The Rescue Procedure," or whatever that would be in French. I'm sure their legacy employee costs make the pension funds of US companies seem like pennies on the dollar.

    7. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      05-22-2020 08:41 PM #6
      Renault is an employment project for the French Govt so it won't let it go under. But I could see Nissan leveraging this to exit the alliance.

      Renault is just like Ford... too small to survive in the long run but super unattractive as a merger or acquisition target because of the one large shareholder that doesn't want to play ball. French Govt and the Ford Family... both welding too much influence and both seemingly detached from the reality that their car company needs to get bigger to survive.

      So naturally, I propose a Ford-Renault merger... it will make DaimlerChrysler look like a walk in the park.

    8. Member mrbatavus's Avatar
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      05-22-2020 09:17 PM #7
      Cheap funky electric cars, maybe even something similar to the ami along with more normal cars
      Sell everything possible except the minimum and start small and build up. Use the money to create something people want and get preorders....
      IMG]https://i1.wp.com/www.intelligentliving.co/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Ami.jpg?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1[/IMG]

    9. Senior Member Iroczgirl's Avatar
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      05-22-2020 09:41 PM #8
      I always thought Renault owned a stake in Nissan, not the other way around. The French government won't let it die.
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    10. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      05-22-2020 09:55 PM #9
      I have another way we can save Renault
      Yeah, stop covid-19 madness, world's worst hoax ever.
      Last edited by BlakeV; 05-22-2020 at 10:00 PM.

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      05-23-2020 06:10 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      French Govt and the Ford Family... both welding too much influence and both seemingly detached from the reality that their car company needs to get bigger to survive.
      People have been saying that car companies need to become larger and larger for decades now, yet it rarely seems to be true. Remember when "everyone" said that BMW and Mercedes needed volume brands to compete? So BMW bought Rover and Mercedes bought Chrysler.

      And BMW and Mercedes both soon realized that trying to go big was a mistake.

      Hell, remember when Ford themselves had controlling stakes in Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, and Aston Martin, but actually became more profitable after they dumped all of that?

    12. Member robr2's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 02:02 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Iroczgirl View Post
      I always thought Renault owned a stake in Nissan, not the other way around. The French government won't let it die.
      Renault owns 43% an control of Nissan and Nissan owns 15% of Renault with no voting rights. But Nissan brings more profit to the partnership and that grates the Japanese.

      If the French government wants Renault to survive, they need to sell their 15% stake and allow the Nissan and Renault to negotiate an equitable partnership. Nobody will "rescue" Renault now as nobody wants to deal with the pesky French government demands.

    13. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 02:59 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by robr2 View Post
      Renault owns 43% an control of Nissan and Nissan owns 15% of Renault with no voting rights. But Nissan brings more profit to the partnership and that grates the Japanese.

      If the French government wants Renault to survive, they need to sell their 15% stake and allow the Nissan and Renault to negotiate an equitable partnership. Nobody will "rescue" Renault now as nobody wants to deal with the pesky French government demands.
      This ^
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    14. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      05-23-2020 04:14 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Canaletto View Post
      People have been saying that car companies need to become larger and larger for decades now, yet it rarely seems to be true. Remember when "everyone" said that BMW and Mercedes needed volume brands to compete? So BMW bought Rover and Mercedes bought Chrysler.

      And BMW and Mercedes both soon realized that trying to go big was a mistake.

      Hell, remember when Ford themselves had controlling stakes in Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, and Aston Martin, but actually became more profitable after they dumped all of that?
      No one ever said Mercedes needs to get bigger. It is part of Daimler so it is already friggin huge.

      BMW didn't know what to do with Land Rover but they've done well with using the Mini brand and legacy Rover UK engineering center to experiment with FWD and without all these FWD cars, BMW probably won't be around as an independent company now.

      Ford had lots of issues and no, they did not become more profitable after they got rid of all the subsidiaries. It is still circling the drain. It doesn't have the scale to replace all of its existing vehicles and invest in EVs. This is why they let their models go unchanged for 7 or 8 years when the industry standard is 5 years.

      But why do you cherry pick the worse mergers and acquisitions? The number of thriving acquisitions in this industry far out number the failed ones. Without Kia, Hyundai wouldn't be the 4th largest car company in the world now (if you count Renault and Nissan separately Hyundai is 4th place, if you count Renault and Nissan together, Hyundai is 5th place). Toyota has done well buying its way into prosperity with Hino, Daihatsu, and now with controlling stakes in Subaru and Mazda. Vovlo wouldn't be around without Geely. Fiat and Chrysler wouldn't be around if Sergio didn't combine them. And least we forget, the biggest car company of them all was built on merger and acquisition - VW didn't get to this place by itself. It got this big and profitable by buying Audi, NSU, SEAT, Lamborghini, Skoda, Bentley and Porsche.

      Profit and volume are closely related for the most part. The most profitable car companies (VW, Toyota) are also the one that sells the most cars because they can achieve economy of scale. Look at the changes in the last 20 years... Look at what happened to VW or Hyundai vs. Ford.

      2019 Worldwide Sales Volume (millions of units)
      1. VW 10.97m
      2. Toyota 10.74m
      3. Renault Nissan 10.06m
      4. FCA-PSA merger pending 7.91m
      5. GM 7.72m
      6. Hyundai 7.20m
      7. Ford 5.39m
      8. Honda 5.17m (Honda is on pace to pass Ford in 2020)
      9. Daimler 3.34m
      10. Suzuki 3.01m



      1999 Worldwide Sales Volume
      1. GM 8.41m
      2. Ford 6.64m (+ 0.97m for Mazda which Ford controlled + Volvo 0.5m which Ford purchased in 1999 = total 8.11m)
      3. Toyota 5.46m
      4. Daimler 4.82m (DaimlerChysler days)
      5. VW 4.78m
      6. Fiat 2.63m
      7. PSA 2.52m
      8. Nissan 2.46m
      9. Honda 2.43m
      10. Renault 2.35m

      ~~~

      13. Hyundai + Kia (two separate companies) 1.33m
      Last edited by bzcat; 05-23-2020 at 04:20 PM.

    15. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      05-26-2020 09:13 AM #14
      Nissan and Renault shelve merger plans, will repair their alliance
      The crisis at both carmakers has accelerated efforts to resolve their disagreements
      Jeremy Korzeniewski
      May 26th 2020 at 8:37AM

      Renault and Nissan have shelved plans to push towards the full merger former leader Carlos Ghosn craved and will instead fix their troubled alliance to try to recover from the coronavirus pandemic, five senior sources told Reuters.

      Nissan has long resisted Renault's proposals for a full-blown merger as executives felt the French carmaker was not paying its fair share for the engineering work it did in Japan, sowing discord that some feared could wreck the partnership.

      Now, with carmakers around the world reeling from the pandemic, the partners are planning to overhaul an alliance that largely failed to convert its global scale into a competitive advantage beyond the joint procurement of parts.

      Both struggling carmakers are set to announce mid-term restructuring plans this week that will serve as a peace treaty designed to resolve the long-standing tensions, five people familiar with the overhaul told Reuters.

      "After the rain, the earth hardens," said one senior Nissan source, citing a popular Japanese proverb that means relationships become stronger after a period of strife.

      All five sources within the alliance, which also includes Mitsubishi, declined to be named because they are not authorized to speak with media.

      continues... https://www.autoblog.com/2020/05/26/...usauto00000016

    16. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      05-26-2020 08:46 PM #15
      Coronavirus: France announces €8bn rescue plan for car industry


      Source.

      Quote Originally Posted by BBC
      The French government has announced an €8bn (£7.1bn) rescue plan for its car industry, which has been severely impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.

      President Emmanuel Macron's proposal includes €1bn to provide grants of up to €7,000 to encourage citizens to purchase electric vehicles. It also puts money toward investments to make France a centre for electric vehicle output.
      The plan comes as the industry braces for thousands of job cuts. In return for the relief, the two main French car producers Renault and PSA have promised to focus production in France.

      "We need a motivational goal - make France Europe's top producer of clean vehicles by bringing output to more than one million electric and hybrid cars per year over the next five years," President Macron told reporters at a press conference at the Valeo car factory in Etaples, northern France on Tuesday.

      He added that no car model currently produced in France should be manufactured in other countries.

      To help sell the 400,000 vehicles languishing in car dealerships due to the coronavirus lockdown measures, President Macron said the government would also give people upgrading to a less polluting car a €3,000 bonus, as part of a scheme open to 75% of French households. "Our fellow citizens need to buy more vehicles, and in particular clean ones. Not in two, five or 10 years - now," he stressed.

      Like in other countries, France's car industry has ground to a halt - with an 80% fall in sales and a backlog of nearly half a million new vehicles waiting for owners.
      President Macron - in his new post-virus spend-and-invest mode - wants to act now not just to rescue the industry from the immediate crisis, but also to prepare it for a future that will be both electric and he hopes much less dependent on foreign and in particular Chinese suppliers.

      To boost demand now, the grants for households or companies that buy new electric cars are increased, as is the so-called conversion bonus for trading in a polluting car for a cleaner one.
      The number of battery charge-points will be tripled to 100,000 by the end of next year. A billion euros in investment will be directed into research and modernising production, and there'll be a €5bn loan for Renault - part of the return for which is a promise by Renault to join a Franco-German consortium to develop car batteries. The aim, Mr Macron said, is to have one million electric cars being made in France every year by 2025.

      According to IHS Markit, France was Europe's top producer of electric and hybrid cars in 2019, with almost 240,000 vehicles, but Germany is set to overtake it by the end of this year.

      Factory closures

      The €8bn plan does not include an expected €5bn loan for embattled French carmaker Renault, which in February reported its first annual loss in a decade.

      The company has been planning to unveil a big restructuring plan on 29 May that was reportedly likely to see it close three factories in Choisy-le-Roi, Dieppe and Caudan. A fourth factory, Flins, will be converted into an electric battery factory.

      Mr Macron said on Tuesday that Renault had agreed to join a Franco-German project to produce electric batteries for the rechargeable auto industry, a step the government had set as a condition for the loan.
      But Mr Macron said the government would not sign off on the deal until Renault's management and unions had concluded talks over the carmaker's French workforce and plants in France.

      Mr Macron only guaranteed the future for employees of Renault's factories in Mauberge and Douai, however. And French daily national newspaper Le Figaro reported exclusively on Tuesday that Renault is planning to cut 5,000 jobs by 2024. The 370 employees that work at the Fonderie de Bretagne, near Lorient in north-western France, are concerned that the carmaker intends to close the factory. They have been protesting since Monday, blockading the factory, and told French national radio network Europe 1 that they intend to march on the streets of Lorient on Wednesday.

    17. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      05-27-2020 12:19 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      This but all confirms their F1 team is done too. Not that it's as relevant as the rest of the company going under, but it's something that's been rumored for a few months now.
      I just saw in the news that McLaren has laid off a quarter of its workforce too, and it's possible more will be laid off in the coming months depending on how long the shutdown lasts. Maybe just cancel F1 for a season to give everyone a chance to get back together before the next season?

    18. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      05-27-2020 12:33 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      I just saw in the news that McLaren has laid off a quarter of its workforce too, and it's possible more will be laid off in the coming months depending on how long the shutdown lasts. Maybe just cancel F1 for a season to give everyone a chance to get back together before the next season?
      That's the debate. The bigger teams are all for having a salvaged season, while the smaller ones like Haas say that doing so will cost them more versus not having a season, based on the fact that they won't receive much prize money as they'll be out of the points.

      As for Renault and Nissan, I'm curious to see how fair the cuts will be within the alliance, given the demands of the French government as part of the bailout money. Unless the Japanese government is willing to help Nissan, I suspect Renault is going to leave them in a frail position.

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