VWVortex.com - And you thought it was over... CARB, Automakers & The Trump Administration
Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    The Car Lounge
    Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
    Results 51 to 75 of 237

    Thread: And you thought it was over... CARB, Automakers & The Trump Administration

    1. Member CostcoPizza's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 20th, 2008
      Location
      USA
      Posts
      6,849
      Vehicles
      '12 MINI Clubman S '99 BMW 328ic
      06-30-2020 08:01 AM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside View Post
      Don't forget, in 2020, everything is racist! Even poor Aunt Jemima.
      I mean the name Aunt Jemima is from a minstrel song...

    2. Remove Advertisements

      Advertisements
       

    3. 06-30-2020 08:06 AM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      So the 99.8% of the population notices no change whatsoever in cars. So for the other 0.2% of the population that needs a V8 in their truck (Ford already says you don’t), and then those who want them in their cars, can buy them and pay higher taxes on them. What’s the problem?
      I'd love to hear your explanation of how rapidly increasing engine regulations will only impact 0.2% of the population. Are you confused and think this only impacts V8s? Even Porsche has said that increasing regulations mean that Euro 7 is going to kill off the turbo V6s they make, with catalytic converters that will be at least four times the size and weight of today which is untenable (and makes you wonder what they'll cost).

      Even the little 160hp 1.4T multiair in my Fiat is abandoned now as it apparently no longer meets increasing EU standards, and in the UK they are using the 1.2L Euro6 engine that makes 69hp. That's why 124 Spider production is ending, and the new 2021 Fiat 500 to meet increasing regulations went from an inexpensive 2500lb 160hp Ciqociento to now a lumbering 9 second 0-60mph heavy beast that costs $42,328 MSRP and its range has decreased from 346 miles to 199 miles, and instead of 5 minute fuelups can be topped off in 6 hours on a standard charger. That's a pretty big change from the outgoing US Fiat 500 MSRP of $16,495.

    4. Member fireside's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 23rd, 2008
      Posts
      2,298
      Vehicles
      '20 F-150 SCREW 2.7EB 4x4
      06-30-2020 08:24 AM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by DrivinAW8 View Post
      Newsflash, Grand Wizard.. this country has been racist since Columbus set foot on shore.

      What seems to be disturbing your comfortable worldview is that 2020 closet racists are finally being called out.
      Yup, America is racist. Yuge problem. Yuge. Speak for yourself, pal.

    5. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 17th, 2002
      Location
      Ontario & Ohio
      Posts
      20,444
      Vehicles
      2015 Fusion Wagon Allroad Turbo
      06-30-2020 08:37 AM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      I'd love to hear your explanation of how rapidly increasing engine regulations will only impact 0.2% of the population. Are you confused and think this only impacts V8s? Even Porsche has said that increasing regulations mean that Euro 7 is going to kill off the turbo V6s they make, with catalytic converters that will be at least four times the size and weight of today which is untenable (and makes you wonder what they'll cost).

      Even the little 160hp 1.4T multiair in my Fiat is abandoned now as it apparently no longer meets increasing EU standards, and in the UK they are using the 1.2L Euro6 engine that makes 69hp. That's why 124 Spider production is ending, and the new 2021 Fiat 500 to meet increasing regulations went from an inexpensive 2500lb 160hp Ciqociento to now a lumbering 9 second 0-60mph heavy beast that costs $42,328 MSRP and its range has decreased from 346 miles to 199 miles, and instead of 5 minute fuelups can be topped off in 6 hours on a standard charger. That's a pretty big change from the outgoing US Fiat 500 MSRP of $16,495.
      Again you’re not interested in good faith arguments. No, an electric 500 if sold here would not have an MSRP of $42,000. You can’t take the VAT-in price of a First Edition model and run it through a currency converter. That’s not how car pricing works.

      “6 hour charge vs 5 minute fill up” is also nonsense. 6 hours overnight while you’re sleeping and always leaving home with a full tank = never spending 5 minutes at a gas station. It’s actually a win, especially on a car unlikely to go on many road trips.

      But all this is presuming increased emissions standards will kill gas engines as an option completely, and they won’t. Frankly, they can’t, as battery production can only ramp up so fast. FCA changing the declining niche 500 to the EV niche to try and keep it going hasn’t spelled the death yet of V8 Challengers or TT Alfas and Maseratis. Emissions standards have worked at corporate average levels for years (slightly different in EU but ultimately corporate or pool) by getting mainstream vehicles more efficient while allowing performance and other high emission models to still be sold to the buying pool that wants them.

    6. Member DrivinAW8's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 21st, 2004
      Location
      PA
      Posts
      771
      Vehicles
      87 BMW God's Chariot, 16 VW Sorority Special
      06-30-2020 08:45 AM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside View Post
      Yup, America is racist. Yuge problem. Yuge. Speak for yourself, pal.

      Oh, I do speak for myself. I acknowledge and fight the racist thoughts and beliefs that I’ve accrued over the years. I read and I learn and I listen to people who suffer at the hands of racist systems that I, as a white man, am not threatened by, and have benefitted from, and my parents have benefitted from, and their parents too.

      In a number of cases, I have even reversed previously held racist ideals once I learned better. My entire career is focused around increasing opportunities for historically marginalized members of society, and STILL I find myself thinking horrible generalizations. But I’m working hard at getting better.


      What are you doing?

    7. 06-30-2020 08:49 AM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      But all this is presuming increased emissions standards will kill gas engines as an option completely, and they won’t. Frankly, they can’t, as battery production can only ramp up so fast. Emissions standards have worked at corporate average levels for years (slightly different in EU but ultimately corporate or pool) by getting mainstream vehicles more efficient while allowing performance and other high emission models to still be sold to the buying pool that wants them.
      Emissions standards are fine, no one said that we should abandon them. The question is if the Federal government's more phased reasonable timeline or the European/Californian timeline is better, and I think the proof is in the pudding. The latter's rather transparent plan is to leave performance and larger vehicles for the upper classes, and force plebs into public transport, and they are in fact trying to fast track banning ICE altogether. The UK, Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany, France, Spain, Portugal, and the Netherlands all have proposed 100% bans on fossil fuel vehicles.

      https://www.transportenvironment.org...-car-eu-agenda

      "A ban on fossil-fuelled cars is now on the EU agenda, following an informal debate by environment ministers that showed significant support for the idea."

    8. I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2nd, 2013
      Location
      Below the glide path to KAUS
      Posts
      13,453
      Vehicles
      Dodge, Toyota, VW, Ford
      06-30-2020 08:53 AM #57
      I love how this topic keeps bringing out the crazy posters. The last one was blackholed due to the racist trump supporters and it seems like this one is well on its way.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

    9. Member DrivinAW8's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 21st, 2004
      Location
      PA
      Posts
      771
      Vehicles
      87 BMW God's Chariot, 16 VW Sorority Special
      06-30-2020 09:04 AM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside View Post
      Yup, America is racist. Yuge problem. Yuge. Speak for yourself, pal.

      Oh, I do speak for myself. I acknowledge and fight the racist thoughts and beliefs that I’ve accrued over the years. I read and I learn and I listen to people who suffer at the hands of racist systems that I, as a white man, am not threatened by, and have benefitted from, and my parents have benefitted from, and their parents too.

      In a number of cases, I have even reversed previously held racist ideals once I learned better. My entire career is focused around increasing opportunities for historically marginalized members of society, and STILL I find myself thinking horrible generalizations. But I’m working hard at getting better.


      What are you doing?

    10. I’m not a loser. I’m a winnah!! patrikman's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 10th, 2008
      Location
      44.5 North, 88 West
      Posts
      38,775
      Vehicles
      made in ‘murica truck and wagon
      06-30-2020 09:16 AM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      I love how this topic keeps bringing out the crazy posters. The last one was blackholed due to the racist trump supporters and it seems like this one is well on its way.
      Make TCL Great Again!!
      this signature kills fascists.

      Support Your Local Homebrewery

    11. Member
      Join Date
      Feb 10th, 2006
      Location
      Santa Cruz, CA
      Posts
      995
      Vehicles
      2017 Golf TSI
      06-30-2020 09:22 AM #60
      As a California lefty, I want the states to win. But I'm not that concerned. First, the two standards are quite similar.

      But second, we are talking about regulating the waning days of the internal combustion engine. Electric cars will be cheaper than internal combustion cars, and people will vote with their pocketbooks.

      Not only will electric cars not emit gases, but they also won't leak oil all over. California has one of the oldest fleets in the country, and leaking fluids is a factor in our pollution.

      Telsa has already put out the idea that 500,000 cars with 75 KWh batteries is already grid-scale storage, which will bring down the cost of providing electricity. California has surplus energy, even though shutting down all nuclear plants. We didn't have any coal plants. Next to shut down? Either hydro or natural gas.

      It's hard to make an internal combustion car that can compete with electric. Look at companies focused on performance, and all of them are looking hard at electricity. This boat is about to sail. Combustion is for Antique-lovers. It will never go away completely. You will trailer your combustion car behind your electric vehicle, or store it at the track.

      So the future is pretty much invariant, no matter who wins this fight.

    12. 06-30-2020 09:22 AM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      I love how this topic keeps bringing out the crazy posters. The last one was blackholed due to the racist trump supporters and it seems like this one is well on its way.
      I don't think you love it, as it seems y'all try really hard to censor any discussion you think is raising points you don't want disseminated. And exactly what has anyone here said that is racist? I know everything is racist in 2020, but we're literally just talking about government emissions regulations and the environment impact of CO2 and the like...

    13. 06-30-2020 09:52 AM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Blonde Guy View Post
      Electric cars will be cheaper than internal combustion cars, and people will vote with their pocketbooks.
      this and very much this....Market forces are the way this is going to work. You can't regulate this into existence.

      I do think its going to require whatever the next battery tech is to make it really available to the masses.

    14. I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2nd, 2013
      Location
      Below the glide path to KAUS
      Posts
      13,453
      Vehicles
      Dodge, Toyota, VW, Ford
      06-30-2020 09:54 AM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      I don't think you love it, as it seems y'all try really hard to censor any discussion you think is raising points you don't want disseminated. And exactly what has anyone here said that is racist? I know everything is racist in 2020, but we're literally just talking about government emissions regulations and the environment impact of CO2 and the like...
      You must not have been here for the first couple threads on this topic months ago.
      Months? It seems like years at this point.
      But those quickly devolved into a cesspool of trump lovers rather quickly. It seems this one will follow along the same path.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

    15. Member Surf Green's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 16th, 1999
      Location
      Silver Spring, GerryMarylandering
      Posts
      14,657
      Vehicles
      2 Manuel Turbo Wagons... One is incredibly slow.
      06-30-2020 10:02 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by DrivinAW8 View Post
      Newsflash, Grand Wizard.. this country has been racist since Columbus set foot on shore.


      It's comforting to know there's always a chronically angry person at the ready to correct my think.
      2002 Golf Wagon TDI, 205k - 2007 Fuji Heavy Industries WRB WRX Wagon, 120k
      Past: 1996 Surf Green GTI VR6 - 1985 Golf 1.8L - No Trim Level Edition

      Grammatical and spelling errors may be intentional

    16. 06-30-2020 10:17 AM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by BryanH View Post
      this and very much this....Market forces are the way this is going to work. You can't regulate this into existence.
      Sure you can, and they are, by either outright banning ICE in the future, or simply setting unrealistic emissions regulations to the point that gasoline and diesel engines become too expensive per horsepower to produce, while simultaneously redistributing middle-class tax income to wealthier tax bracket new vehicle EV buyers. Your average American taxpayer is making $60K and 70% are under the age bracket for new Tesla S and X owners which is now 54 years old with incomes around $150K and predominantly male. If we're going to harp on racism, perhaps point out that we're essentially redistributing wealth from the average American to predominantly rich older white guys with these subsidies. The average American is driving a ~12 year old vehicle, not because they don't like new car smell, but in part because government regulations increase the price of new vehicles.

      To truly allow market forces and consumer preference to dictate the direction forward we would have to remove all the stifling regulations on ICE and subsidies on non-ICE. Otherwise, its like saying that to sell a hamburger you have to use only organic ingredients hand reared in giant open pastures that can be no more than 100 calories, ban cheese, and add 25% tax per burger, and then heavily subsidize chicken tikka masala and say "see, consumers hate hamburgers, the market has spoken".

    17. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 26th, 2001
      Location
      Los Angeles
      Posts
      24,584
      06-30-2020 11:00 AM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      I love how this topic keeps bringing out the crazy posters. The last one was blackholed due to the racist trump supporters and it seems like this one is well on its way.
      Plot twist, it actually just the same poster with lots of sock puppet accounts

    18. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 17th, 2002
      Location
      Ontario & Ohio
      Posts
      20,444
      Vehicles
      2015 Fusion Wagon Allroad Turbo
      06-30-2020 11:20 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Emissions standards are fine, no one said that we should abandon them. The question is if the Federal government's more phased reasonable timeline or the European/Californian timeline is better, and I think the proof is in the pudding.
      Is that the question though? This is what's at stake:

      Outlook
      Part II of the SAFE Rule will go into effect sixty days after publication in the Federal Register. States and environmental groups have already pledged to challenge the final rule in court.

      Litigation of the SAFE Rule will lead to ongoing regulatory uncertainty. Automakers who elect to disregard the California GHG and ZEV standards and rely exclusively on the new CAFE and GHG standards do so at their own risk. Should there be a change in administration or should litigation ultimately invalidate the rules, automakers may find themselves left scrambling to comply with stricter standards given the long lead times for vehicle development and production.

      Automakers would face a significant challenge if a court upheld only Part II of the SAFE Rule but not Part I. In that scenario, the California waiver would be left intact, allowing California—and the 13 states that have adopted California standards—to impose stricter GHG standards than the rest of the country. This would be an unfavorable outcome for automakers who have strived for years to ensure that California’s standards are harmonized with the federal standard to maintain one national standard.

      As we detailed earlier, the uncertain future of the SAFE Rule and desire for predictability in meeting California’s requirements have already spurred Volkswagen, Ford, Honda, and BMW to enter a voluntary agreement with California requiring GHG reductions at a compromise level of 3.7 percent per year through MY 2026. The agreement’s credit multipliers also differ from those in the SAFE Rule in that the agreement allows double credit for battery and fuel cell electric vehicles and 1.6x credit for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles through MY 2024. It remains to be seen whether states that have adopted California standards will pursue similar agreements and whether additional automakers will seek to join those agreements. At any rate, automakers must now evaluate numerous litigation and rulemaking scenarios in determining their fuel economy and GHG compliance strategies.

      © 2020 Beveridge & Diamond PC
      National Law Review, Volume X, Number 104
      https://www.natlawreview.com/article...-ghg-standards

      The Part II rules relaxing the efficiency increase per year was a follow-up to Part I of trying to can the rights of California (and the states that choose voluntarily to follow California emissions) to regulate the emissions of vehicles sold there. The administration has tried to both unilaterally declare a single national standard that no state can make more stringent, and now relaxing that national standard. If the lawsuits against the Part I rules succeed, then again there's two diverging standards and automakers are probably just going to make to the stricter ones anyway (as they've done for some time). Is there a merit to half the country allowing less fuel efficiency than the other half?

      It's not "5% per year vs. 1.5% per year" in a vacuum.

    19. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 4th, 2007
      Location
      Vancouver
      Posts
      17,099
      Vehicles
      RS3, JKU
      06-30-2020 11:53 AM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by WalterGuida View Post
      I mainly just lurk and read, Ill post every now and then etc.

      Can someone please ban this Ducman69, he is a cancer to this forum. That poster ruins every thread they touch. I understand with the current situation politics are hard to keep out of posts but this is ridiculous. Thinly veiled shots at anything or anyone that disagrees with T_D type thinking and projection.. oh and also there is that racist part..

      Can we start a gofundme to bribe mods to ban him?

    20. 06-30-2020 11:54 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      The Part II rules relaxing the efficiency increase per year was a follow-up to Part I of trying to can the rights of California (and the states that choose voluntarily to follow California emissions) to regulate the emissions of vehicles sold there. The administration has tried to both unilaterally declare a single national standard that no state can make more stringent, and now relaxing that national standard. If the lawsuits against the Part I rules succeed, then again there's two diverging standards and automakers are probably just going to make to the stricter ones anyway (as they've done for some time). Is there a merit to half the country allowing less fuel efficiency than the other half?

      It's not "5% per year vs. 1.5% per year" in a vacuum.
      Cmon, you're a smart guy.

      1) You're operating on the premise that California and their legislatures ability to influence a minority of blue states should be the national standard, rather than what the majority states and the actual elected national authority have outlined. If situations were reversed and Obama set standards and Texas set lower standards that they wanted to force all the states to adopt, I see no chance in hell you'd support that.

      2) C'mon, its so obvious what is happening here. Automakers can exceed standards by any margin they wish, and can drastically outperform even the current California standards if they think that's what the public wants. They know full well that its not and that its a handicap. However, manufacturers like VW that are going to produce underwhelming underpowered vehicles in the EU anyway could have a leg up on domestic manufacturers that rely more heavily on sales of larger vehicles with more powerful engines, just as that gave them a foothold in the 70s and 80s when Democrat's rapid regulations destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony in the US and allowed them to sell a lot of small underpowered bugs that weren't as heavily harmed as big Rivieras and Firebirds.

      You also say that we aren't operating in a vacuum, but don't forget that central and South America, that are part of the Americas, will not be adopting such an aggressive pace. Meixco for example for light passenger vehicles is still using as low as US tier 1 or euro 3 back from 94 and 00 respectively. The federal government setting a standard by which all Americans can abide, North and South Americans, would make for a single unified market and reduce costs and increase vehicle availability not just because its one standard but lower less expensive standards that offer higher performance at lower costs, all else equal.
      Quote Originally Posted by WalterGuida
      Can someone please ban this Ducman69, he is a cancer to this forum. That poster ruins every thread they touch.
      “When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.” - George RR Martin Besides, the only ones making personal attacks, name calling, and trying to shut down discussion rather than engaging with the topic of government emissions regulations aren't the righties in this thread.
      Last edited by Ducman69; 06-30-2020 at 12:27 PM.

    21. I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2nd, 2013
      Location
      Below the glide path to KAUS
      Posts
      13,453
      Vehicles
      Dodge, Toyota, VW, Ford
      06-30-2020 11:57 AM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Cmon, you're a smart guy.

      1) You're operating on the premise that California and their legislatures ability to influence a minority of blue states should be the national standard, rather than what the majority states and the actual elected national authority have outlined. If situations were reversed and Obama set standards and Texas set lower standards that they wanted to force all the states to adopt, I see no chance in hell you'd support that.

      2) C'mon, its so obvious what is happening here. Automakers can exceed standards by any margin they wish, and can drastically outperform even the current California standards if they think that's what the public wants. They know full well that its not and that its a handicap. However, manufacturers like VW that are going to produce underwhelming underpowered vehicles in the EU anyway could have a leg up on domestic manufacturers that rely more heavily on sales of larger vehicles with more powerful engines, just as that gave them a foothold in the 70s and 80s when Democrat's rapid regulations destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony in the US and allowed them to sell a lot of small underpowered bugs that weren't as heavily harmed as big Rivieras and Firebirds.

      You also say that we aren't operating in a vacuum, but don't forget that central and South America, that are part of the Americas, will not be adopting such an aggressive pace. Meixco for example for light passenger vehicles is still using as low as US tier 1 or euro 3 back from 94 and 00 respectively. The federal government setting a standard by which all Americans can abide, North and South Americans, would make for a single unified market and reduce costs and increase vehicle availability not just because its one standard but lower less expensive standards that offer higher performance at lower costs, all else equal.
      You are not the brightest tool on the tree, are ya?
      Stop making Texas look bad please. Just crawl back into whatever hole you had been wallowing in before.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

    22. Member IdontOwnAVW's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 17th, 2004
      Location
      Wilmington DE
      Posts
      7,220
      Vehicles
      MK1TDI, BoltEV, G8GXP
      06-30-2020 11:59 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Cmon, you're a smart guy.

      1) You're operating on the premise that California and their legislatures ability to influence a minority of blue states should be the national standard, rather than what the majority states and the actual elected national authority have outlined. If situations were reversed and Obama set standards and Texas set lower standards that they wanted to force all the states to adopt, I see no chance in hell you'd support that.

      2) C'mon, its so obvious what is happening here. Automakers can exceed standards by any margin they wish, and can drastically outperform even the current California standards if they think that's what the public wants. They know full well that its not and that its a handicap. However, manufacturers like VW that are going to produce underwhelming underpowered vehicles in the EU anyway could have a leg up on domestic manufacturers that rely more heavily on sales of larger vehicles with more powerful engines, just as that gave them a foothold in the 70s and 80s when Democrat's rapid regulations destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony in the US and allowed them to sell a lot of small underpowered bugs that weren't as heavily harmed as big Rivieras and Firebirds.

      You also say that we aren't operating in a vacuum, but don't forget that central and South America, that are part of the Americas, will not be adopting such an aggressive pace. Meixco for example for light passenger vehicles is still using as low as US tier 1 or euro 3 back from 94 and 00 respectively. The federal government setting a standard by which all Americans can abide, North and South Americans, would make for a single unified market and reduce costs and increase vehicle availability not just because its one standard but lower less expensive standards that offer higher performance at lower costs, all else equal.
      The cars created in the past decade show that CAFE standards being raised wouldn't cause the cost of vehicles to dramatically raise to unaffordable levels, nor does it rob performance vehicles of high HP as emissions restrictions did in the 70s. Seems like such a weird thing to focus on as cars are becoming cleaner, and at the same time much more powerful. Euro 6 wouldn't mean we all end up driving Polos because all of the V8 cars and trucks vanished from the earth.
      IG: @geeofff
      MK1 TDI Swap

    23. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 18th, 2015
      Location
      Cleveland, OH
      Posts
      1,264
      Vehicles
      2020 Cayman GT4 - Miami Blue - PCCB
      06-30-2020 12:02 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      You also say that we aren't operating in a vacuum, but don't forget that central and South America, that are part of the Americas
      You mentioned "part of the Americas" almost as if assuming we have some sort of alliance.
      Technically, Canada is in the North American continent, but they aren't "Americans" (in the U.S. sense of the word) any more than Ecuador, Peru, Brazil, Panama, Mexico, Chile, Argentina... etc.

      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      The federal government setting a standard by which all Americans can abide, North and South Americans.
      How do you propose our federal government (1 country) forces 2 entire continents to do something?
      Last edited by iliveoncaffiene; 06-30-2020 at 12:05 PM.
      ASP.NET / C# Software Engineer

      2020 718 Cayman GT4 - Miami Blue - PCCB
      2017 718 Cayman - GT Silver - PDK/Sport Chrono/PSE - gone
      2016 Golf R 6MT - Deep Black Pearl - gone

    24. 06-30-2020 12:05 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by IdontOwnAVW View Post
      The cars created in the past decade show that CAFE standards being raised wouldn't cause the cost of vehicles to dramatically raise to unaffordable levels, nor does it rob performance vehicles of high HP as emissions restrictions did in the 70s. Seems like such a weird thing to focus on as cars are becoming cleaner, and at the same time much more powerful. Euro 6 wouldn't mean we all end up driving Polos because all of the V8 cars and trucks vanished from the earth.
      Explain to the class why the average European's vehicle ownership costs are so much higher and why they on average have far lower performance powertrains as an average if its not because of restrictive government regulations? And if we're going to unify to the EU regulations, wouldn't we too be pushed into the controversial performance killing expensive Euro 7 as well?

    25. 06-30-2020 12:07 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by iliveoncaffiene View Post
      Everything you said aside:
      How do you propose our federal government (1 country) forces 2 entire continents to do something?
      You mentioned "part of the Americas" almost as if assuming we have some sort of alliance. Technically, Canada is in the North American continent, but they aren't "Americans" in our sense of the word.
      And somehow, he states "poor people can't afford the expenses that new regulations will add" while then stating "let's just bring LATAM up to NA standards"...

      I'm assuming he also thinks that regulation of the banking industry is bad and adds costs. Regulation of food quality is bad and adds costs. Regulation of workers age is bad and adds costs. Regulation of everything is bad and adds costs...

      But he also believes that the federal government is more powerful and that the 10th amendment isn't valid...

      Here's the thing...

      the 10th amendment allows states to have their rights. It is within the rights of EVERY company to not do business in California if they so choose. There is zero reason why auto manufacturers MUST meet CARB. Companies are free to do their own thing too.

    26. Member
      Join Date
      Aug 18th, 2015
      Location
      Cleveland, OH
      Posts
      1,264
      Vehicles
      2020 Cayman GT4 - Miami Blue - PCCB
      06-30-2020 12:07 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      Explain to the class why the average European's vehicle ownership costs are so much higher and why they on average have far lower performance powertrains as an average if its not because of restrictive government regulations? And if we're going to unify to the EU regulations, wouldn't we too be pushed into the controversial performance killing expensive Euro 7 as well?
      I think the argument is that we already have vehicles that adhere to current standards - vehicles sold in both EU / NA with the same emissions equipment - which you mention are more expensive because of those regulations.
      Yet, those vehicles are not as expensive when sold here as compared to the EU.

      So the variable here is clearly not the emissions regulations (alone) making them more expensive.
      ASP.NET / C# Software Engineer

      2020 718 Cayman GT4 - Miami Blue - PCCB
      2017 718 Cayman - GT Silver - PDK/Sport Chrono/PSE - gone
      2016 Golf R 6MT - Deep Black Pearl - gone

    Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •  
    vwvortex.com is an independent Volkswagen enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc. Content on vwvortex.com is generated by its users. vwvortex.com is not in any way affiliated with Volkswagen AG.