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    Thread: And you thought it was over... CARB, Automakers & The Trump Administration

    1. Millennial Pizza Cat's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 03:35 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      2) C'mon, its so obvious what is happening here. Automakers can exceed standards by any margin they wish, and can drastically outperform even the current California standards if they think that's what the public wants. They know full well that its not and that its a handicap. However, manufacturers like VW that are going to produce underwhelming underpowered vehicles in the EU anyway could have a leg up on domestic manufacturers that rely more heavily on sales of larger vehicles with more powerful engines, just as that gave them a foothold in the 70s and 80s when Democrat's rapid regulations destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony in the US and allowed them to sell a lot of small underpowered bugs that weren't as heavily harmed as big Rivieras and Firebirds.
      The clean air act of 1970 and the EPA, which 'destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony' was pushed by Richard Nixon, you ****ing dolt.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Dubber-GLI View Post
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    3. How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 03:40 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Smooremin View Post
      Took the picture right out of my post.


      "theres a bunch of good people on both sides"
      "They're good people. The best."
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      You take that fake rich sled back to the toothless masses and rub their stupid meth faces in your success. Do it for me.

    4. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 03:44 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Smooremin View Post
      Took the picture right out of my post.


      "theres a bunch of good people on both sides"


      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      "They're good people. The best."
      You both are clearly suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. Here's what a totally non-deranged, completely rational and fact-based post looks like:



      Quote Originally Posted by The A1 and A2 German View Post
      Fish on! Fish on! Hope you set your drag properly!

      Says the racist leftists, you know, who nominated a:

      Rich, white, male for representation

      And left the:

      Not so rich, minority, and many females, in the dust no f's given.

      No outrage for all the leftists assaulting, killing and doing $400,000,000+ in damages this month? You know, pounding the piss outta whites while screaming your cause?

      Show me screen shots of your fake outrage amongst the Obama, Clinton & Biden trifecta of Hillary's life long mentor Robert Byrd. A senior KKK, official recruiter for the Klan. Will making homophobic remarks, and pushing to not allow enlistment into the armed forces.

      Shall we keep going? Or call a draw?

      The violence, property damage, lack of composer, anarchy, death, assaults, doxing, screaming, rioting, looting, injury, attempted vehicular man slaughter....

      Try this for size, show me the counter to the leftist mob who destroyed my work: "Millions in damage at Scottsdale Fashion Square Mall and area after Saturday night protests turn violent."

      That's a leftist mob, get it? Show me 500+ Trump supporters going full blown anarchy? Death, injury, assault, ruined businesses.

      Hello? Hellllllooooooo? Mcfly?

      Oh, that's just Scottsdale, shall we add the other 20 cities which would make a ratio of left vs right on anarchy to:

      .05:10 (32 power)

      ------------------------------------------------


      Politics aside, and a serious question: If people claim to care so much about the environment, why isn't anyone doing anything on an individual scale? Seems like a lot of talk with no substance. I'm surprised the streets are filled with ~40mpg ruckus's, mopeds, etc...hell...they'd end up paying for themselves.

    5. Turtles walk slowly, but get angry fast! Smooremin's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 03:45 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      You both are clearly suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. Here's what a totally non-deranged, completely rational and fact-based post looks like:
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Asking OT for relationship advice makes about as much sense as asking TCL what car to buy.
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      About 5 oclock I realized I needed to go to Costco for some white people stuff.

    6. Millennial Pizza Cat's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 03:46 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Here's what a totally non-deranged, completely rational and fact-based post looks like:
      A real stable genius, amirite?
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      Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Dubber-GLI View Post
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      06-30-2020 03:46 PM #106
      All I got from that rant is that the dude works at the mall.

    8. 06-30-2020 03:50 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by Smooremin View Post
      Took the picture right out of my post.
      G'damn, I knew Chargers were roomy, but even I'm surprised they fit 500 people in one. Then again, anyone intentionally blocking traffic standing in the middle of a road or highway does deserve to get run over... I thought all car-guys would agree with that.
      Quote Originally Posted by Pizza Cat View Post
      The clean air act of 1970 and the EPA, which 'destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony' was pushed by Richard Nixon, you ****ing dolt.
      No it wasn't, it was also called "Muskie Act" because it was pushed by Edmund Muskie leading the Democrats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Muskie
      His legislative work during his career as a Senator facilitated a vast expansion of modern liberalism in the United States. He fathered the 1960s environmental movement which culminated in the passage of the Clean Air Act of 1970 and Clean Water Act of 1972, hallmarks of international environmental policy.
      Guessing you're not going to apologize, but thought I'd share anyway.
      Last edited by Ducman69; 06-30-2020 at 04:05 PM.

    9. Turtles walk slowly, but get angry fast! Smooremin's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 03:52 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      All I got from that rant is that the dude works at the mall.
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      Asking OT for relationship advice makes about as much sense as asking TCL what car to buy.
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      About 5 oclock I realized I needed to go to Costco for some white people stuff.

    10. Millennial Pizza Cat's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 03:55 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      All I got from that rant is that the dude works at the mall.
      Surveillance footage from his office?

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      Quote Originally Posted by Vee-Dubber-GLI View Post
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    11. Member VWestlife's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 04:04 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      The emissions regulations on Bugs were decimating. It raised temperatures to the point that the design was no longer capable of shedding that much heat. Many things were tried to help, but it would have taken a complete redesign to get it to survive. Since the public no longer wanted a tiny car designed in the 1930s that wasn't really a viable option. How to get past that point... I know! Let's simply start using a completely different design philosophy that would transform the company completely! No biggie! It isn't such a big change as what the Americans and their big cars will have to go through.

      Decimating is the correct word.
      VW's shift from air cooled to water cooled did not begin only because of emissions regulations, it began in large part because of Americans' demand for larger, more powerful, quieter cars with an automatic transmission, better heating, and air conditioning. The slow, noisy, inefficient air-cooled Type 4 failed to meet those demands, and VW bought Auto Union in 1969 to gain access to NSU and Audi's water-cooled, front-wheel-drive designs.

      Meanwhile the Beetle lived on and adapted to new U.S. emissions regulations with the addition of electronic fuel injection and a catalytic convertor in 1975. In the Super Beetle convertible, this design continued all the way until 1980. It is true that the Karmann Ghia, Type 3, and Type 4 were all discontinued rather than adapted to the new regulations, but the introduction of the Golf (Rabbit), Passat (Dasher), and Scirocco made them obsolete anyway.
      __________

    12. Member smetzger's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 04:05 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Decimating is the correct word.
      I don't think that word means what you think it means.

      Decimate = 10% destruction
      Nothing to see here move along.

    13. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 04:09 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by Lawrider View Post
      What is strange about this whole issue is that at the core of conservative/republican beliefs is state rights; that the states have primacy to make their own decisions and determinations free from federal interference.

      In this case you have a state that is choosing it's own emissions standards. No one has to make cars for them - but in classic republican/capitalist realities - California's big car market cannot be ignored. So CA is just flexing it's muscle in a classically Republican state-rights way - and yet the Republican administration is fighting that decision. Let CA do what it wants. Let the market decide what pain threshold is tolerable. If CA wants to make it where the only thing that passes CARB are electric mopeds - let them, the citizens there will either embrace that decisions as reflective of their wishes, or vote-in a state government that accurately reflects their wishes. Okay that last sentence is wishful thinking but still, let CA do what it wants.

      FYI I am conservative (but socially liberal).
      That's where the last thread ended up before it was holed. I asked with incredulity why a Californian Liberal was explaining states rights and the free market to Conservatives.

      What did it come down to? Same as this thread. We can find points to go back and forth on, but the crux of the argument is "your team bad, my team good."

      Not gonna lie, this thread was more entertaining with some good whiskey and scotch in me.
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      06-30-2020 04:15 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post


      Yep!!!! One, you have what.....3, 4, 5 whole cases?

      Thanks for proving me correct!

      One guy in a car vs 500+ in South Scottsdale. Incredible! It's like showing the couple of Telsa injuries & death, and dismissing the tens of thousands of ICE injuries & death. Congrats on having "a picture", shall I x10 fold counter that picture with a multitude of leftist vehicular homicide incidents? How about from the multitude from JUST this month?

      Congrats you have a stock picture of a single American Airlines collusion, while ignoring the x10 fold cases of collisions of injury, assaults, riots, and death from Delta (metaphorically speaking).

      Pretty sure a 500+ mob eclipses 1 dude in a car.
      Last edited by The A1 and A2 German; 06-30-2020 at 05:17 PM.
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    15. 06-30-2020 04:17 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by smetzger View Post
      I don't think that word means what you think it means.

      Decimate = 10% destruction
      LOL, if we're talking about legionaries. Per dictionary.com in general purpose terms it just means: "kill, destroy, or remove a large percentage or part of. ex: the project would decimate the fragile wetland wilderness".

      Here's a Chevy promotional film talking about that issue with the hard times domestics faced then to smaller lighter vehicles that were easier to meet the extreme 90% reduction emissions standards with:

    16. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 04:22 PM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by VWestlife View Post
      VW's shift from air cooled to water cooled did not begin only because of emissions regulations, it began in large part because of Americans' demand for larger, more powerful, quieter cars with an automatic transmission, better heating, and air conditioning. The slow, noisy, inefficient air-cooled Type 4 failed to meet those demands, and VW bought Auto Union in 1969 to gain access to NSU and Audi's water-cooled, front-wheel-drive designs.

      Meanwhile the Beetle lived on and adapted to new U.S. emissions regulations with the addition of electronic fuel injection and a catalytic convertor in 1975. In the Super Beetle convertible, this design continued all the way until 1980. It is true that the Karmann Ghia, Type 3, and Type 4 were all discontinued rather than adapted to the new regulations, but the introduction of the Golf (Rabbit), Passat (Dasher), and Scirocco made them obsolete anyway.
      That added to it, but the engines themselves were hurt by this, which is what I was saying. The temperatures kept going up and were only partially compensated by a bigger oil cooler, venturi around the fan opening, larger fan, 9mm sodium filled exhaust valves, bigger oil passages, larger oil pump, lower compression, different alloys in the case, fuel injection and with all of that they still ran hotter than previously. It was a side note showing he didn't know what he was talking about, that's all.

      Quote Originally Posted by smetzger View Post
      I don't think that word means what you think it means.

      Decimate = 10% destruction
      Their sales went down, down, down in the U.S. through that whole period, but that's not what I was speaking about.

      Dictionary.com defines it thusly:

      verb (used with object), dec·i·mat·ed, dec·i·mat·ing.
      to destroy a great number or proportion of:
      The population was decimated by a plague.
      to select by lot and kill every tenth person of.
      Obsolete. to take a tenth of or from.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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    17. Member The A1 and A2 German's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 04:40 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      All I got from that rant is that the dude works at the mall.
      And able to do $100k bets , can you? Hello? Maybe a wager that my positive metrics from 401k policy, bank membership status, credit score, property ownership, credentials, health, stature, moral & social standards eclipse most, if not yours? 😉.

      I like it! All talk, no counter substance (seems about inline).

      I ❤ it! It's like trying to make fun of my form running track and field, yet you run a horrible 13 second 100 meter, a 30 second 200m and a 6:50 minute mile. As well, not good at the infield events, nor the long distances (metaphorically speaking). Let's go with "I flip burgers @ Whataburger." and compare.....so then what's your excuse?

      Oh yeah, since you guys weren't paying attention, the story also alluded to the surrounding area. Kinda like the largest Merc dealership in the US being destroyed, restaurants being ransacked as families were dining as had to flee in the midst of eating and the place being tossed...but...let's just dismiss that.


      Just to hear a bunch of radicals dismiss factual content and attempt to make a spin while attacking my work (what ever it may be). But, all telling not surprised one bit.

      I love love love love, when you counter someone's content with legit content, that all they can reply with is petty 14 year old Jr. High talk.

      No really, not surprised. Kisses!
      Last edited by The A1 and A2 German; 06-30-2020 at 04:52 PM.
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    18. I’m not a loser. I’m a winnah!! patrikman's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 04:49 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by Pizza Cat View Post
      The clean air act of 1970 and the EPA, which 'destroyed the domestic vehicle manufacturer's hegemony' was pushed by Richard Nixon, you ****ing dolt.
      this signature kills fascists.

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    19. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 05:12 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by The A1 and A2 German View Post
      And able to do $100k bets , can you? Hello? Maybe a wager that my positive metrics from 401k policy, bank membership status, credit score, property ownership, credentials, health, stature, moral & social standards eclipse most, if not yours? 😉.

      I like it! All talk, no counter substance (seems about inline).

      I ❤ it! It's like trying to make fun of my form running track and field, yet you run a horrible 13 second 100 meter, a 30 second 200m and a 6:50 minute mile. As well, not good at the infield events, nor the long distances (metaphorically speaking). Let's go with "I flip burgers @ Whataburger." and compare.....so then what's your excuse?

      Oh yeah, since you guys weren't paying attention, the story also alluded to the surrounding area. Kinda like the largest Merc dealership in the US being destroyed, restaurants being ransacked as families were dining as had to flee in the midst of eating and the place being tossed...but...let's just dismiss that.


      Just to hear a bunch of radicals dismiss factual content and attempt to make a spin while attacking my work (what ever it may be). But, all telling not surprised one bit.

      I love love love love, when you counter someone's content with legit content, that all they can reply with is petty 14 year old Jr. High talk.

      No really, not surprised. Kisses!
      Wait, what are you trying to bet on, again? Nobody is really disputing the facts, more disagreeing with the bat**** crazy conclusion you draw from those facts.

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      06-30-2020 05:37 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post
      The most likely result is that you simply won't get as many options in California, and the options you do get will be in line with European pricing if you have the same type of legislatures that like European laws.

      Cadillac may only offer the CTS but not the CTS-V, you may get the Challenger V6 but no Hellcat or Scat Pack, probably the smaller engine F-150 but no Raptors or anything, Velosters but no N model, etc.

      And for things like a Mustang, look to Germany for your future, where a Mustang four-banger starts at $43K instead of the $26K in the US and a Mustang GT starts at $50K rather than $32K in the States, similar to the housing situation where $335K buys you this <1K sqft mobile home in California rather than this 3.7K sqft much nicer house and property in Texas.
      “May” and “probably” are doing a lot of heavy lifting in your predictions. I’m pretty sure more of those special models and performance models are sold in California than any other state. Automakers are going to continue to be more likely to create performance models they can sell in California and thus all 50 states, or drop them altogether if there isn’t enough sales base to justify them. This is why we get things like 48v mild-hybrid for the Audi S6 or E53 AMG and 4-cylinder level EPA ratings out of some pretty quick turbo 6s. Or the downsized 4.0TT “_63” AMG engine. 18/27 for a C63 AMG vs 13/19 out of the old 6.2.

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      06-30-2020 05:42 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Wait, what are you trying to bet on, again? Nobody is really disputing the facts, more disagreeing with the bat**** crazy conclusion you draw from those facts.
      Then you obviously haven't read the thread. Not a single person has agreed with my facts. My very post was countered (an attempt at countering), I countered back with legit info, pretty easy. I hear what you're saying, but the responses are on the contrary.

      Pretty easy, this thread pertains to carbon emissions, rules, regulations....it's great to have a debate, but to blame Trump, Obama, or Bush or any one person is absurd. I've already provided content that shows people on a individual basis don't care. That, is pretty fair, is related, as we're all on this snow globe together.

      Metaphorically speaking, you can't cry about deforestation, when your home builder asks what type of home you'd like, and you respond:"I want a 3,400sqft log cabin, with a 10,000sqft wrap around cedar deck, and matching 20x20' wood shed"...while you clear cut an acre of old growth forest and 2.3 miles of land to drive there in your 2500HD dually. Sure, that example is over the top, but the other content was true.

      Pretty easy, I've already explained it, here I'll try again.

      I can't believe people engage, talk or speak so much of environmental impacts, rules, regulations while not only blaming a single person yet most importantly, on a individual scale don't care.

      There's extremely low participation, hence the term "charlatan." Truck sales through the roof, average mpg is horrible, the streets are not choked with cyclist trying to "run down to Home Depot, corner store", for a small single item, people over eating, majority of population is fat, a huge percentage of GHG's are from food production.

      It's like hearing a society crying about the oceans, while shoving sea food down their throats as fast as possible.

      It's easy, the actions of people do not align with their beliefs.


      Per the politics: If someone wants to place some content out there, no one can cry when that content is countered. If you're going to trash Telsa, don't get Jimmy's ruffled when you find out Ford, Chevrolet or GM is more dangerous, less reliable or x, y and z then Telsa.

      People cry that "racist words were said", per a party...let's say all true o.k. all 100% legit. Yet you dismiss the full blown anarchy, riots, death, inquiry, and $400+ million in property damage.

      - Cry when a Trump supporter makes a sound.
      - Are "lips sealed" when packs are anarchy pitbulls lighting America on fire go nuts.

      Pretty easy, I've explained in. Cry when a Trump poodle barks, ignore nation wide leftist pitbull deaths, anarchy & damage.

      Easy, I'm countering said content.
      Last edited by The A1 and A2 German; 06-30-2020 at 05:54 PM.
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    22. 06-30-2020 05:46 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by The A1 and A2 German View Post
      And able to do $100k bets , can you? Hello? Maybe a wager that my positive metrics from 401k policy, bank membership status, credit score, property ownership, credentials, health, stature, moral & social standards eclipse most, if not yours? 😉.

      I like it! All talk, no counter substance (seems about inline).

      I ❤ it! It's like trying to make fun of my form running track and field, yet you run a horrible 13 second 100 meter, a 30 second 200m and a 6:50 minute mile. As well, not good at the infield events, nor the long distances (metaphorically speaking). Let's go with "I flip burgers @ Whataburger." and compare.....so then what's your excuse?

      Oh yeah, since you guys weren't paying attention, the story also alluded to the surrounding area. Kinda like the largest Merc dealership in the US being destroyed, restaurants being ransacked as families were dining as had to flee in the midst of eating and the place being tossed...but...let's just dismiss that.


      Just to hear a bunch of radicals dismiss factual content and attempt to make a spin while attacking my work (what ever it may be). But, all telling not surprised one bit.

      I love love love love, when you counter someone's content with legit content, that all they can reply with is petty 14 year old Jr. High talk.

      No really, not surprised. Kisses!
      Why not just show us your dick since you seem to care about size so much.

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      06-30-2020 05:52 PM #122
      What did I say?
      The trump nut swingers come out in force.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
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      06-30-2020 05:57 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by Nourdmrolnmt View Post
      Why not just show us your dick since you seem to care about size so much.
      I dick is so small I thought I had a second belly button.

      (an innie)

      Fully stimulated, my body goes smooth like a Ken doll.
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      06-30-2020 06:10 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by The A1 and A2 German View Post
      Then you obviously haven't read the thread. Not a single person has agreed with my facts. My very post was countered (an attempt at countering), I countered back with legit info, pretty easy. I hear what you're saying, but the responses are on the contrary.

      Pretty easy, this thread pertains to carbon emissions, rules, regulations....it's great to have a debate, but to blame Trump, Obama, or Bush or any one person is absurd. I've already provided content that shows people on a individual basis don't care. That, is pretty fair, is related, as we're all on this snow globe together.

      Metaphorically speaking, you can't cry about deforestation, when your home builder asks what type of home you'd like, and you respond:"I want a 3,400sqft log cabin, with a 10,000sqft wrap around cedar deck, and matching 20x20' wood shed"...while you clear cut an acre of old growth forest and 2.3 miles of land to drive there in your 2500HD dually. Sure, that example is over the top, but the other content was true.

      Pretty easy, I've already explained it, here I'll try again.

      I can't believe people engage, talk or speak so much of environmental impacts, rules, regulations while not only blaming a single person yet most importantly, on a individual scale don't care.

      There's extremely low participation, hence the term "charlatan." Truck sales through the roof, average mpg is horrible, the streets are not choked with cyclist trying to "run down to Home Depot, corner store", for a small single item, people over eating, majority of population is fat, a huge percentage of GHG's are from food production.

      It's like hearing a society crying about the oceans, while shoving sea food down their throats as fast as possible.

      It's easy, the actions of people do not align with their beliefs.


      Per the politics: If someone wants to place some content out there, no one can cry when that content is countered. If you're going to trash Telsa, don't get Jimmy's ruffled when you find out Ford, Chevrolet or GM is more dangerous, less reliable or x, y and z then Telsa.

      People cry that "racist words were said", per a party...let's say all true o.k. all 100% legit. Yet you dismiss the full blown anarchy, riots, death, inquiry, and $400+ million in property damage.

      - Cry when a Trump supporter makes a sound.
      - Are "lips sealed" when packs are anarchy pitbulls lighting America on fire go nuts.

      Pretty easy, I've explained in. Cry when a Trump poodle barks, ignore nation wide leftist pitbull deaths, anarchy & damage.

      Easy, I'm countering said content.
      Honestly, any point you're trying to make is covered in tons of crap-slinging, so it's tough to discern what you're even trying to say. Let's try to dig out the points here and filter the noise out.

      - " the actions of people do not align with their beliefs."

      Votes count as actions, so when we vote on representatives to enact a set of rules in order to lessen our environmental damage, that's an action someone can take. This speaks to the need to have environmental protection regulation because we can't rely on each individual consumer or company to act in any interest other than their own immediate want. So you create some incentive to do what's better for the environment, or create rules to lessen the damage, which is what CA has done in this case.

      -"People are talking about Trump supporters instead of talking about rioters"

      Not sure what to tell you on this one. I think we'd all agree that looting, violence and destruction is bad, and very few would actually support that behavior. Comparing Trump supporters' actions to the actions of lawless looters is a bit unusual since one group is following the lead of the POTUS, where the other is a leaderless group of people who want to use necessary protest as cover to do illegal stuff. If you can find the leader who is coordinating all this "leftist" damage, let's call them out and hold them accountable the same way we should hold Trump accountable for the crap he's pushing and the actions his supporters take when they're following his lead.

      And again, what are you trying to bet $100k on? That your "positive metrics from 401k policy, bank membership status, credit score, property ownership, credentials, health, stature, moral & social standards eclipse most, if not yours?"

      Half of those things are worded like you have no experience with them, and the other half aren't even measurable (moral standards?), but you want to bet $100k that yours are better than the average? Crazy.
      Last edited by westsideseal; 06-30-2020 at 06:17 PM.

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      '16 TLX SH-AWD- NA is BEST
      06-30-2020 06:15 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      My bet is that it won’t be sorted until all cars are electric, then and only then a decision will come down from on high.
      Everyone in this thread will be worm **** by the time 100% of cars are EVs- IF such a thing ever even happens
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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