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    Thread: Kenosha Rioting

    1. 09-22-2020 11:33 AM #1226
      I would like those right leaning members here to give me their opinion as to the surge in popularity of left leaning politicians such as Bernie, AOC, and the "squad".
      And from left leaning members an opinion on Trumps surge to power and continued popularity with his base and the GOP that ridiculed him a little more than 4 years ago.
      I'm just really curious as to what each side thinks of the other.

      Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

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      09-22-2020 11:41 AM #1227
      Quote Originally Posted by vwguru714 View Post
      I would like those right leaning members here to give me their opinion as to the surge in popularity of left leaning politicians such as Bernie, AOC, and the "squad".
      And from left leaning members an opinion on Trumps surge to power and continued popularity with his base and the GOP that ridiculed him a little more than 4 years ago.
      I'm just really curious as to what each side thinks of the other.

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      No Team Cthulhu or Huge Meteor? Wtf, man?
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      fact; there are no, NO, ZERO evidence that washing hands...work.

    4. Member vwtool's Avatar
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      09-22-2020 11:42 AM #1228
      Can I play both sides?

      - Bernie and AOC are popular because capitalism has failed America's youth. As with all youth, their passions outrun their experience, but they're not entirely wrong.

      - Trump remains popular with his base because they are addicts, and he is their meth. Like addicts who can't be shamed, there is no logic or appeal to objective reality that will sway them.
      From the npboards, home of "intelligent discussion:" ...Trump...seems to be appealing quite a bit to black voters. By some estimates as many as one out of four would vote for him. This may well be because he not only has a Strong Pimp Hand, he is also the most "******-Rich" man in New York City. In other words, someone they can both relate to and aspire to."

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      09-22-2020 11:49 AM #1229
      Quote Originally Posted by vwguru714 View Post
      I would like those right leaning members here to give me their opinion as to the surge in popularity of left leaning politicians such as Bernie, AOC, and the "squad".
      And from left leaning members an opinion on Trumps surge to power and continued popularity with his base and the GOP that ridiculed him a little more than 4 years ago.
      I'm just really curious as to what each side thinks of the other.

      Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


      I'll bite: The socialist left want equal result, not equal opportunity. They sell the utopian dream, which doesn't exist.

      I'm right-leaning as far as small government goes and the absolute rights of the people don't have to be written down to exist. I want education to be improved. I want people to learn how to take care of themselves and their children. If they can't, then we should be able to help care for them.

      Power - in its general form - is achieved by discipline, dedication, education, and perseverance. You don't get it just because you want it. And it annoys me when people get it that don't deserve it - regardless of political leanings.
      "Excluding the possibility that a female Scandinavian Olympian was running around outside our house last night, what else might be a possibility?"
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      09-22-2020 11:53 AM #1230
      Quote Originally Posted by Time for an aSS View Post
      $11M is not a big number. Again, I don't condone it but to get everyone foaming at the mouth about $11M is silly.
      There's another layer of problem involved: insurance.

      Lots of people including some in here think insurance covers this, yet in most cases - it doesn't. For many Kenosha small business owners who had their entire livelihood burned and destroyed, they are BK and F'ed with a capital F.

      Google for articles but so far I found 4 where the owners are either not getting anything, or just a small fraction of the damages. In one case the demo costs were $140K because the fires caused the debris to be listed as hazardous materials. The ins covered ~$15k.

      Here's one example:

      https://wkow.com/2020/09/02/owner-of...5m-in-damages/

      Same thing with Minneapolis. Rioters/looters/arsonists were heard on videos and in interviews to say, "F the store owners, plus they have insurance" Wrong.

    7. Member bave's Avatar
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      09-22-2020 11:55 AM #1231
      Quote Originally Posted by vwguru714 View Post
      I would like those right leaning members here to give me their opinion as to the surge in popularity of left leaning politicians such as Bernie, AOC, and the "squad".
      And from left leaning members an opinion on Trumps surge to power and continued popularity with his base and the GOP that ridiculed him a little more than 4 years ago.
      I'm just really curious as to what each side thinks of the other.

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      I can't address the popularity of the "squad" because those are local elections with very hard leaning districts for the most part. Joe Stalin could win AOC's district.

      However for Bernie, and I do believe there is some bleed over to AOC here, it is really about entitlement. A vocal portion of young people (ie: the people who are most often in the streets screaming about this stuff) are the ones who think the system failed them because they went to university and should walk out to a middle class lifestyle like they were raised in. They fail to grasp the concept that not all educations are equal and that often their "education" has left them with no real marketable skills. Going to a school that you spend a quarter of a million dollars on to train you for a job that pays $14/hr isn't the fault of society. It's the fault of the education system and your parents leading you to think that was a good decision. Their solution? Give them a mulligan and wipe their debts off the table and then make someone else pay for their lifestyle desires. Ultimately, I think it is a real failure in educational systems to explain how financial systems work and real comparisons.

      A great example is that if you ask a Bernie-Bro type about taxing the rich and then point out that the rich pay very similar levels of overall effective taxation rates in the US as they do in the EU (where the EU rich pay 3-5% more on average) but the middle class pay ~20-25% more on average, they will call you a liar. Or if, better yet, if you point out the problems with a wealth tax, you will get met with screams rather than debate.

      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      Can I play both sides?

      - Bernie and AOC are popular because capitalism has failed America's youth. As with all youth, their passions outrun their experience, but they're not entirely wrong.

      - Trump remains popular with his base because they are addicts, and he is their meth. Like addicts who can't be shamed, there is no logic or appeal to objective reality that will sway them.
      I think we are actually saying something similar with the first. I would simply point out by saying that the youth were not failed by capitalism, it is that the youth didn't understand capitalism in the first place. You can't spend a fortune on a mediocre school to get a mediocre degree that just won't pay the bills. People need to be realistic and look at the world you occupy. You might want to be a social worker and find it your life calling, but the reality is that it doesn't pay the bills even without $250M in student loan debt, but being a diesel mechanic does, but not many people want to be a mechanic, a welder, plumber, etc. As to your latter point I think it is more complex than that, ultimately a two party system is less about what you want and more about what you don't want in a lot of cases.

      A lot of people hate trump because of what he represents and delivers, ok great I get it. However the left needs to understand that the same thing is true about a lot of the modern democratic party platform too. People aren't as much voting for Trump or for Biden as much as they are voting against Trump and against Biden. How many times have we seen that even here with the "Hold my nose and pull the lever" crowd.

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      09-22-2020 11:57 AM #1232
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      There's another layer of problem involved: insurance.
      Read almost any insurance policy for exclusions. Very high on the list:

      "Civil Unrest".

      Moreover, I don't know of many business owners who carry interruption coverage. What that means is that say you own a business and it gets burned out. Without interruption coverage you don't get any money for the lost business from the downtime while you rebuild/restock etc. That means any debt you have you have to carry individually. It means your employees and benefits packages. It's a lot and it is generally irrecoverable. Also, that has the same exclusion as above.

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      09-22-2020 11:58 AM #1233
      Quote Originally Posted by GreenandChrome View Post
      I think you're looking at an outdated list.

      3. gays & the alphabet soup gang
      4. poor people
      5. not making money
      6. non-luxury vehicles
      7. having to argue they don't enjoy white privilege, they had to work hard to go to top-10 schools and get an MBA and make sure they took their parent's $100k+ investment and quadrupled it in 5 years.
      8. HRC
      9. Science
      I identify as a Republican and you got me with #5. The rest, nope.

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      09-22-2020 12:01 PM #1234
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Rioters/looters/arsonists were heard on videos and in interviews to say, "F the store owners, plus they have insurance" Wrong.
      No question that it sucks. No question that it's wrong. My question is whether the size of the problem is deserving of the amount of focus put on it. Given the size of some other problems right now that involve massively higher numbers in terms of both deaths and property damage you'll have to forgive me for thinking it's a ploy.
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      fact; there are no, NO, ZERO evidence that washing hands...work.

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      09-22-2020 12:02 PM #1235
      Quote Originally Posted by bave View Post
      Read almost any insurance policy for exclusions. Very high on the list:

      "Civil Unrest" aka Domestic Terrorism.

      Moreover, I don't know of many business owners who carry interruption coverage. What that means is that say you own a business and it gets burned out. Without interruption coverage you don't get any money for the lost business from the downtime while you rebuild/restock etc. That means any debt you have you have to carry individually. It means your employees and benefits packages. It's a lot and it is generally irrecoverable. Also, that has the same exclusion as above.
      Fixed. Cause the DT designation is actually being used in most of these cases in Seattle, Portland, Kenosha, Minneapolis, Chicago, DC...but the nice folks doing all the destruction all think the Big, Mean, Corporate Insurance company will make that small biz owner (who likely worked their whole life for that business) whole again. Sorry, not how it works....

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      09-22-2020 12:07 PM #1236
      Quote Originally Posted by Time for an aSS View Post
      No question that it sucks. No question that it's wrong. My question is whether the size of the problem is deserving of the amount of focus put on it. Given the size of some other problems right now that involve massively higher numbers in terms of both deaths and property damage you'll have to forgive me for thinking it's a ploy.
      Add it all up for all cities impacted. If you google for articles, several have put the known damage at 2-3B to date as of July something.
      For context, the Rodney King riots in 1992 caused $775 million in damages in LA. ($1.4B in today's $$)

      Edit: it's trending to the most expensive rioting in US history per several articles. The article below shows the cost of other (60s) civil rights riots.

      https://www.reinsurancene.ws/us-riot...-for-insurers/
      Last edited by tbvvw; 09-22-2020 at 12:10 PM.

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      09-22-2020 12:09 PM #1237
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Add it all up for all cities impacted. If you google for articles, several have put the known damage at 2-3B to date as of July something.
      For context, the Rodney King riots in 1992 caused $775 million in damages in LA. ($1.4B in today's $$)
      https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...es%20at%20risk.

      Which topic has the GOP spent more time on?
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      fact; there are no, NO, ZERO evidence that washing hands...work.

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      09-22-2020 12:14 PM #1238
      Quote Originally Posted by Time for an aSS View Post
      https://www.marketwatch.com/story/th...es%20at%20risk.

      Which topic has the GOP spent more time on?
      Both deserve equal treatment. But that's $120B being threatened, not lost already. What's been lost to date, and what is Dem controlled and regulated CA doing to mitigate it after 1000+ years of significant fires in the region?

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      09-22-2020 12:15 PM #1239
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Add it all up for all cities impacted. If you google for articles, several have put the known damage at 2-3B to date as of July something.
      For context, the Rodney King riots in 1992 caused $775 million in damages in LA. ($1.4B in today's $$)

      Edit: it's trending to the most expensive rioting in US history per several articles. The article below shows the cost of other (60s) civil rights riots.

      https://www.reinsurancene.ws/us-riot...-for-insurers/
      Wow, just think of all the money we could save by being nicer to black people.

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      09-22-2020 12:22 PM #1240
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Both deserve equal treatment.
      Do you think that's what the GOP is doing?

      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Dem controlled and regulated CA
      Alright, Kushner. We'll just let it burn because it's a blue state. I'm so tired of this BS.
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      fact; there are no, NO, ZERO evidence that washing hands...work.

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      09-22-2020 12:25 PM #1241
      Quote Originally Posted by bave View Post
      I can't address the popularity of the "squad" because those are local elections with very hard leaning districts for the most part. Joe Stalin could win AOC's district.
      In today's political climate, George McGovern and Ronald Reagan are almost relative centrists.
      "I get my kicks above the waistline, sunshine."

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      09-22-2020 12:26 PM #1242
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      The majority of Chaz/Chop took place in a park and the building that received the most "attention" from protestors was the police precinct. So there were cleaning costs (including graffiti) and broken windows for a about 4 locations by my count. They pretty much cleaned it up in a weekend. The vast majority of the property damage in Seattle occurred pre-CHOP when the initial protests started in downtown Seattle and post-CHOP when the "direct action" groups were established and started regularly damaging properties. There's 2 groups that protest every single day here.
      I think you're mistaken. According to my dad who watches a lot of Fox News, this is Portland:



      It's also NYC, and also Kenosha, Wisconsin.
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      09-22-2020 12:26 PM #1243
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Both deserve equal treatment. But that's $120B being threatened, not lost already. What's been lost to date, and what is Dem controlled and regulated CA doing to mitigate it after 1000+ years of significant fires in the region?
      They should rake more leaves, amirite?

      Or maybe the fedgov should rake more, since most of the fires are on .gov land managed by various 3 letter agencies. You can't constantly pass the buck. We've reduced us gov forest service budgets consistently since the early 2000s. big surprise it bites.
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      09-22-2020 12:33 PM #1244
      Quote Originally Posted by Slipstream View Post
      I think you're mistaken. According to my dad who watches a lot of Fox News, this is Portland:



      It's also NYC, and also Kenosha, Wisconsin.
      Oh, hell, that's also what Don Lemon fans picture.

      "America <dramatic pause> is on fire tonight."
      "Excluding the possibility that a female Scandinavian Olympian was running around outside our house last night, what else might be a possibility?"
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      09-22-2020 12:44 PM #1245
      Quote Originally Posted by Time for an aSS View Post
      FBI director says white nationalists are one of the biggest threats to national security. bave says huge swaths of damage and injuries from BLM and Antifa.

      Geez, who should I believe? So hard these days.
      Facts.

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      09-22-2020 12:48 PM #1246
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      The majority of Chaz/Chop took place in a park and the building that received the most "attention" from protestors was the police precinct. So there were cleaning costs (including graffiti) and broken windows for a about 4 locations by my count. They pretty much cleaned it up in a weekend. The vast majority of the property damage in Seattle occurred pre-CHOP when the initial protests started in downtown Seattle and post-CHOP when the "direct action" groups were established and started regularly damaging properties. There's 2 groups that protest every single day here.
      And who do we believe more...sources on the ground or Bave and 2.0?

      Get out of here with your actual eyes on reporting!!

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      09-22-2020 12:49 PM #1247
      Quote Originally Posted by Time for an aSS View Post
      Alright, Kushner. We'll just let it burn because it's a blue state. I'm so tired of this BS.
      I don't do the blue vs red thing. And no I'm not anti Dem or CA or have any bias vs any state. But in CA, one of the factors involved in why some of these fires reach the levels that they do is due to the decades long regs in place that helps set the stage for dangerous conditions.

      For example, it's taken many years to allow the tearing down of massive swaths of trees all over CA where bark beetles have killed almost 200M trees. Those 150-200M dead/standing trees (in just one range) produce enough fire/fuel to be the energy source of some of the biggest fires in CA history. Study the Creek fire for example, scientists have been in full alarm mode for a long time about the destruction a fire like that can cause...all because there's been millions of fuel left standing.

      Read this:

      https://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publicatio...003_larvie.pdf

      There's a lot of conservation on-going in the SN mountains, as there should be. But the sad reality is the past conservation efforts contradict deforestation efforts needed to be made to make the forests a safer place. But that requires downing entire forests. It sucks, but the back and forth of conservation regs vs. deforestation played a big role - and that's the political side. There's a whole group of Duke energy scientists studying this effect here in CLT, to help counter fires like the one in Gatlinburg, TN a few yrs ago. All their research is done in CA, and one of the guys is a neighbor of mine.

      Then there's the whole public utilities issue - where the biggest CA utilities prioritize wind and solar power and don't do powerline maintenance much anymore because of regs and costs. That's a political issue as well.

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      09-22-2020 12:55 PM #1248
      Since this is becoming a catch all, and somewhat related to social injustice...

      Anyone catch Ellen's apology?

      After promising to "talk about it," her ~5min monologue was a little off the target.
      "Excluding the possibility that a female Scandinavian Olympian was running around outside our house last night, what else might be a possibility?"
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      09-22-2020 12:56 PM #1249
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      I don't do the blue vs red thing. And no I'm not anti Dem or CA or have any bias vs any state.
      Using the descriptor term "Dem controlled" was a really odd choice of words then.
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      fact; there are no, NO, ZERO evidence that washing hands...work.

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      09-22-2020 01:02 PM #1250
      Quote Originally Posted by Tornado2dr View Post
      They should rake more leaves, amirite?

      Or maybe the fedgov should rake more, since most of the fires are on .gov land managed by various 3 letter agencies. You can't constantly pass the buck. We've reduced us gov forest service budgets consistently since the early 2000s. big surprise it bites.
      I don't disagree. But you need a balanced approach. Jerry Brown said it was 100% climate control. Newsome has been more pragmatic, he's called for improved wildfire surveillance and warning systems, better urban planning, and helping property owners clear brush. But of greatest important was removing dead trees. .gov lands need .gov budget, but that budget goes nowhere if state regs make certain policies not possible.

      https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-...dates-respond/

      https://www.latimes.com/environment/...l%20per%20acre.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckde.../#66ce13d95e30

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